I wanted RDA to win, am I a bad person?

[Rider of the Last Shadow]

I wanted RDA to win, am I a bad person?

YES

[Sarge]

Hello people, I just joined the forum!

I wanted to say I really felt bad for the human invaders. Of course I knew they'd lose and I didn't expect anything different. I didn't even dislike it, because the final defeat is part of being the bad guys.

But I enjoyed everything the RDA did from the beginning to the end. I mean, they had mercy for a while, then they got tired and put mercy aside... and that wasn't such a bad "tactical choice", since they easily kicked those blue asses. Of course they couldn't expect the planet itself to turn against them!

I actually was surprised that for most part of the movie the humans kept diplomatic relations to avoid open conflict with the natives. I expected them to be more aggressive! Come to think of it, the whole "Avatar Program" was created to avoid killing those savages and ultimately caused the defeat of the RDA! Gay!

Anyway I like how humans were portrayed in the movie! They somehow reminded me of the Terrans from StarCraft... and all those animals attacking them really reminded me of the Zerg Swarm! Oh and wait... the Na'Vi could be the Protoss... only without technology.

i hear you man, the units seem stolen from stacraft or i just play too much you got goliaths, and banshees (from sc2) and some girly looking battlecruiser, but they were not the human army per se, they are mercs so in open war you want soldiers no mercs.

i see you play warhammer, lol yeah im fond to the WH40k fluff myself but once you get a hold that that future is not so grim or dark (hence you dont have millions of imperial soldiers dropping on the jungle) you like the movie more, these humans are more the like of star trek i think.

[HufweMakto]

That's like wanting the Nazis to win in Saving Private Ryan. You're rooting for the wrong side.

It's almost like wanting The Empire to win in Star Wars, but in all seriousness it's kinda makes you look twice at this thread. If someone wanted the RDA to win, after all of the horrible things they did to the Na'vi, to Pandora (heck that scene where they were plowing down the Tree of Voices could've caused brain-damage to Eywa if you take the "Eywa as a huge brain" seriously) then I have to question that kind of logic to root for the bad guys.

[Agent Zero]

That's like wanting the Nazis to win in Saving Private Ryan. You're rooting for the wrong side.

Um, no. And I do take issue with that statement. First of all, there's somewhat of a rule on the internet that states your side of an argument loses all credibility once you try to equate something or someone you disagree with to Hitler. To paraphrase Jon Stewart on the subject, "That man worked to hard to be that evil just so every Tom, Dick, and Harry to could call someone Hitler in a discussion."

Now there's the evidence to look at. Did the humans put the Na'Vi into concentration camps? Did they try to wipe them out? No. At the very worst they tried to force them off their land, but once they did that they didn't pursue. If the humans were as bad as Nazis they would have hunted down the fleeing Na'Vi after the assault on Home Tree and slaughtered them right then and there, and that would have been the movie. Even at the end, Quaritch doesn't want to exterminate them, just shock them into never bothering the humans again. The Nazi comparison doesn't work, AT ALL. Like I said, the whole thing had shades of grey to me. I do sympathize with the plight of the Na'Vi (I'll explain why in a moment), but at the same time I understand that the humans NEED unobtanium to keep their society going. As a human I would like to think that our great species, which has done so much in such a relatively short time, will be allowed to keep going. And if they need a mineral to do that, I'll fall on the side that will get it.

Now, I do sympathize with the Na'Vi, and it's the same reason that I find your "RDA=Nazis" analogy so insulting. I'm half-Jewish, a good chunk of my father's family died in the Holocaust. So I do take offence to the notion that someone rooting for the RDA is an evil neo-Nazi. No, I can say with a fair degree of certainty I am not. I just recognize that the humans in the film have something to fight for, just like the Na'Vi.

[Friend of Pandora]

Um, no. And I do take issue with that statement. First of all, there's somewhat of a rule on the internet that states your side of an argument loses all credibility once you try to equate something or someone you disagree with to Hitler. To paraphrase Jon Stewart on the subject, "That man worked to hard to be that evil just so every Tom, Dick, and Harry to could call someone Hitler in a discussion."

Now there's the evidence to look at. Did the humans put the Na'Vi into concentration camps? Did they try to wipe them out? No. At the very worst they tried to force them off their land, but once they did that they didn't pursue. If the humans were as bad as Nazis they would have hunted down the fleeing Na'Vi after the assault on Home Tree and slaughtered them right then and there, and that would have been the movie. Even at the end, Quaritch doesn't want to exterminate them, just shock them into never bothering the humans again. The Nazi comparison doesn't work, AT ALL. Like I said, the whole thing had shades of grey to me. I do sympathize with the plight of the Na'Vi (I'll explain why in a moment), but at the same time I understand that the humans NEED unobtanium to keep their society going. As a human I would like to think that our great species, which has done so much in such a relatively short time, will be allowed to keep going. And if they need a mineral to do that, I'll fall on the side that will get it.

Now, I do sympathize with the Na'Vi, and it's the same reason that I find your "RDA=Nazis" analogy so insulting. I'm half-Jewish, a good chunk of my father's family died in the Holocaust. So I do take offence to the notion that someone rooting for the RDA is an evil neo-Nazi. No, I can say with a fair degree of certainty I am not. I just recognize that the humans in the film have something to fight for, just like the Na'Vi.

Yet another incredibly well thought out and reasonable response! I'll try to take time tonight to respond to your earlier response to mine - and thanks for not being gun-shy here!

[Gavran]

What you fail to realise is the one basica difference in the fight...

The humans were fighting for money and greed (the soldiers were hired mercenaries) and the Na'Vi and fighting for survival to live.. From where i understand it the humans were trying to commit genocide to erradicate all things Na'Vi. By destroying Eywa's connection with them they were pretty much killing the Na'Vi

Humans did not put the Na'Vi into camps but they were more than pre paired to do this. Read the script, they did not kill Tsutay they cut of his Bonding Cable! That is not war that is torture!

Also further the humans had no right to Pandora, if they wanted something a proper way to go aorund would be to ask, if the answer was no so be it. That is why they were in the wrong. (imagine aliens come to earth adn say we need all the water form the oceans - they will probably have fight on there hands...We wont just let them take the water would we? The same goes for the Na'Vi)

[HufweMakto]

Thanks for the welcome, and the well thought out reply.
Like I said, I felt the humans went about things the wrong way. I think they were all to eager to resort to war, but I think even then it was fear rather then greed that pushed them to that. Here they are, on an alien word, where even the act of breathing can kill them. They were, rightfully so, on edge. So in that situation the "we need to assert ourselves as the big kids on the block" mentality is easy to understand. Not saying I agree with it, but it is easy to understand.
As for what humanity is capable of, I would very much like to see our race advance to the point where we can in fact explore the universe, because of what that means for us; the knowledge it would unlock would be amazing. That being said, I do agree that this advancement can't come at the expense of our moral character, but that's just it, it doesn't have to, either in actuality, or in the universe of Avatar. The RDA could have gone about things in a more diplomatic matter, but that goes both ways, the Na'Vi weren't the easiest to work with. Cultural understanding is a double edged sword, both sides need to work at it. So really I would like to see a point in this film series where humanity and the Na'Vi eventually do reach a mutual understanding, where the humans recognize the Na'Vi as sentient beings worthy of respect, and the Na'Vi recognize that humanity does need unobtanium to continue their progress as a civilization.
The Na'Vi said, regarding the Sky People and their capacity to learn new things, that it's hard to fill a glass that's already full. That's a frank and honest evaluation, of humanity both then and now. That being said, I think the same can be said of the Na'Vi. I'm sure there are things we know that they could benefit from. Which is why I would like to see an eventual understanding take place. Both sides can benefit from a little cooperation and mutual respect.

As for Miles Quaritch, I think he's the kind of guy you want leading your men in the field, but not the guy you want calling the shots at the very top. I didn't see him as the Emperor Palpatine villain, in fact I saw him more as the antagonist then as the villain (if that makes any sense), but I liked that because I give any film credit that tries to go beyond the standard good vs evil story. Shades of grey are good.

Good analysis, I need to reread this post again to work a little more. I've heard from Stephan Lang actually considering his character to be "tradgic" in nature. I think the real tradgedy would be that Quadritch is trying in his own , flawed way to "save" humanity, but he goes around it the wrong way. I think I've mentioned this before, but Quadritch is in a way Jake Sully's foil, or at least what Jake might've turned into if he didn't "see" Pandora for it what it was.

[Agent Zero]

Yet another incredibly well thought out and reasonable response! I'll try to take time tonight to respond to your earlier response to mine - and thanks for not being gun-shy here!

No worries, it's great, and I think it speaks to the awesomeness of this film. When a film maker can make a movie which mirrors real life, where good and evil aren't often really present in pure forms, they've done a tremendous job. So kudos to JC. He really put together a complex, thought provoking, stunning, and meaningful universe together. Any time people come out of a film with this much to say about it, I say well done to the people behind it.

Someone brought up the Galactic Empire from Star Wars. As much as that film series may be a landmark in the sci-fi genre, it kind of, well, it doesn't age well. Simply put, the Empire are just to good at being the bad guys. Its so one sided. They're unapologetically evil (their leader openly follows something called the Dark Side). There's no mental exercise required to see why the Empire is an evil force, or why the Rebels are heroes.
Re-read some history, and it's clear it's very often not that clear cut. The Nazis, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and North Korea are the only really unmistakingly evil entities in history. Everyone else, every other conflict, is really morally ambiguous. There are no clear good guys or bad guys in most conflicts throughout history. And I love that James Cameron captured that in Avatar. Yes, the humans are bastards, but they aren't being bastards for the sake of it. Which is really my main point.

And again, the Toronto Maple Leafs. I've been following them for twenty two years, so I'm use to seeing my team lose when it matters :P

Really though, I hope there's some reconciliation between mankind and the Na'Vi, because the two can teach each other a lot, if both sides approach the relationship with an open mind.

What you fail to realise is the one basica difference in the fight...

The humans were fighting for money and greed (the soldiers were hired mercenaries) and the Na'Vi and fighting for survival to live.. From where i understand it the humans were trying to commit genocide to erradicate all things Na'Vi. By destroying Eywa's connection with them they were pretty much killing the Na'Vi

The humans were fighting for unobtanium (my one flaw with the film is that name *sigh*). Unobtanium may be worth a lot to some people, but it has a greater purpose then a good quarter. If I understand the expanded universe of Avatar correctly, unobtanium is essential to keeping the Earth's economy running, and it's essential as starship fuel. So really, the humans were fighting for the continued survival and progression of their species' civilization. The RDA and the money they were making off of that was incidental. Sure, humanity is capable, and indeed should work toward, obtaining that mineral in a more peaceful way that allows for co-existence, but I don't view the humans as Nazi or Galactic Imperial like murderers.

Humans did not put the Na'Vi into camps but they were more than pre paired to do this. Read the script, they did not kill Tsutay they cut of his Bonding Cable! That is not war that is torture!

Read the very first draft of George Lucas' Star Wars. It's crazy (not in a good way). If it doesn't make it into the final film, then that's not how it happened. The humans didn't cut off Tsutay's bonding cable, they shot him, during a battle, where both sides lost many lives.

Also further the humans had no right to Pandora,

Who has a right to anything? Most of the nations in the world today were founded by "invading" peoples. The US, Canada, NZ, Australia, and Israel are the most famous examples, but it goes deeper. Britain wouldn't be what it is today if the Anglo-Saxons hadn't invaded from Germania and suppressed the Celts, and then the Normans conquered the Anglo-Saxons in 1066. France wouldn't exist as it does today if the Romans and Franks hadn't pushed out the Gauls, Spain was conquered and reconquered time and time again between the Romans, Carthaginians, and Muslims. Bosnia wouldn't exist if the Turks didn't invade the Balkans, and so on. History's a constant flow of peoples to and from locations.

if they wanted something a proper way to go aorund would be to ask,

I agree, and they should have, and hopefully humanity and the Na'Vi both learn something about coexistence over the course of the film series.

if the answer was no so be it. That is why they were in the wrong.

Just accept "no" and that's it? Let Earth's economy fall apart and kill humanity's space program and all the knowledge they could collect, just like that?
I think a simple "hey, look, we know this is your land, and we respect that, but we REALLY need the stuff under the ground. Mind of we take it? We'll try not to bother ya" would have gone a long way. The biggest mistake from humanity's point of view is that they didn't try that, at least not over the course of the film.

(imagine aliens come to earth adn say we need all the water form the oceans - they will probably have fight on there hands...We wont just let them take the water would we? The same goes for the Na'Vi)

If aliens showed up and were like "we need salt water, its essential to keep our entire civilization running," I think something could be worked out.

[fortress8]

What you fail to realise is the one basica difference in the fight...

The humans were fighting for money and greed (the soldiers were hired mercenaries) and the Na'Vi and fighting for survival to live.. From where i understand it the humans were trying to commit genocide to erradicate all things Na'Vi. By destroying Eywa's connection with them they were pretty much killing the Na'Vi

Humans did not put the Na'Vi into camps but they were more than pre paired to do this. Read the script, they did not kill Tsutay they cut of his Bonding Cable! That is not war that is torture!

Also further the humans had no right to Pandora, if they wanted something a proper way to go aorund would be to ask, if the answer was no so be it. That is why they were in the wrong. (imagine aliens come to earth adn say we need all the water form the oceans - they will probably have fight on there hands...We wont just let them take the water would we? The same goes for the Na'Vi)

Wel water is and unfair comparison. I'd say gold is better. Say an aline race more advanced than us(able to wipe the floor or exterminates us if they really wanted to) came to earth wanting all the gold. Yes we would put up a fight but not as much as if it was water. You could argue that unobtainium is needed for something special on pandora but the na'vi probably don't know this so have little need for it.


Also i'd like to make the comparison of children. You take two 5 year olds give one a shiny brand new toy. Tell the other he has to watch while the other kid gets to enjoy himself tremendously. whats the kid without the toy gonna do? try to take it. The kid with it is not gonna want to give it away. Will it kill the kid if he get's it taken away. He may get hut but probably won't died. IN this case humans are kid without toy. Na'vi are the kid with the shiny brand new toy. The toy itself could be the na'vi way of life or the unobtainium that they live on top of.

[HufweMakto]

No worries, it's great, and I think it speaks to the awesomeness of this film. When a film maker can make a movie which mirrors real life, where good and evil aren't often really present in pure forms, they've done a tremendous job. So kudos to JC. He really put together a complex, thought provoking, stunning, and meaningful universe together. Any time people come out of a film with this much to say about it, I say well done to the people behind it.

Someone brought up the Galactic Empire from Star Wars. As much as that film series may be a landmark in the sci-fi genre, it kind of, well, it doesn't age well. Simply put, the Empire are just to good at being the bad guys. Its so one sided. They're unapologetically evil (their leader openly follows something called the Dark Side). There's no mental exercise required to see why the Empire is an evil force, or why the Rebels are heroes.
Re-read some history, and it's clear it's very often not that clear cut. The Nazis, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and North Korea are the only really unmistakingly evil entities in history. Everyone else, every other conflict, is really morally ambiguous. There are no clear good guys or bad guys in most conflicts throughout history. And I love that James Cameron captured that in Avatar. Yes, the humans are bastards, but they aren't being bastards for the sake of it. Which is really my main point.

And again, the Toronto Maple Leafs. I've been following them for twenty two years, so I'm use to seeing my team lose when it matters :P

Really though, I hope there's some reconciliation between mankind and the Na'Vi, because the two can teach each other a lot, if both sides approach the relationship with an open mind.

I think the "shades of grey" arguement might go against the people who still think that the entire movie is "black and white" in morals, go check out TvTropes. There's been editwars on the Avatar page on that site. It's been attacked on that premise that people come away with the idea that "all the Humans were bad guys" when they're obviously missing the point here. They missed the point with Tsu'Tey trying to kill Jake on numerous occassions, the fact that Grace is a human, and the fact that some humans do help the Na'vi in the end. In the end, it's the corporation that's shown to be evil, rather than the humans themselves. You know, there are some people who say that District 9 is not as "black and white" in morals as Avatar is, but in contrast, the main bad guy in District 9, Koobus (sp.?) is protrays as unmittingly vile, without the same kind of personality that Quadritch shows to Jake in the begining. Quadritch actually promises to get Jake back his legs, Koobus just doesn't care and is ready to actually shoot the Prawns anyways even if they wanted to move.

The whole Empire in Star Wars was protrayed as being unmitingly evil, in the way they just destroy an entire planet, but also you have to realize they came from the Republic, which was already corrupted when The Phantom Meance rolls around. Taken from another point of veiw, the Republic turning into the Empire kinda reflects what happened in Rome, someone actually pointed that out once. However, the main leader in the Empire, as explained in Lucas' commentary for Star Wars, controls the Empire through fear. The RDA is a corporation, not a government.

However, the RDA is protrayed as a villain, or antagonist in the film. So normally, I don't root for the bad guys, especially when they're blowing up a moon so they can strip mine and stuff.

On an interesting note, the RDA troopers, or SECFOR were protrayed a little more heinously in the original scriptment as I remember: two gunners actually massacre a herd of direhorses for the fun of it.