A sadistic choice over the survial of mankind

[Wind12]

I should have said "Tree of souls" instead of "Homtree" apologies.

[exostrike]

There's no cosmic policeman, but there are morals. There is altruism.

Morality?

What is morality? 20 years ago blacks and white were segregated by law. 50 years ago homosexuality was illegal. 150 years ago slavery still existed. Thousand of years ago pedophilia was a socially accepted practise. We believe that morality is forever the same but it is not. It moves and changes acording to society. And if society is threatened with extinction, I wouldn't be suprised to see genocide become morally acceptable.

Never judge actions by your standards, always look at the surrounding environment.

[Porthos1]

^Blacks and Whites (and Asians and Hispanics) still have segregation, not as pronounced, but it still exists in some form at least in my country. Homosexuality is still considered a pariah in many areas of my country. Slavery exists all over the world: it may be illegal but flourishes. Genocide still pops up every now and then and is hardly punished.

I would ask you also to not judge actions by your standards and look at the environment. You started the thread with the scenario where the Humans have failed in their attempt to force themselves back onto Pandora and because, in your scenario, Unobtainium is vital to existence of the species, Earth has gone to “Hell in a hand-basket.” We seek to save ourselves by requesting to live on Pandora. Obviously, we cannot return to conquer Pandora since it failed in our previous “immoral” attempt. The “Moral” thing to do now is to become very humble and hope the Na’vi are not vindictive. That is the environment you have placed the Humans in this scenario. If we cannot work with the Na’vi, then we are F*@#ed! If we work with the Na’vi, there is hope for survival, maybe not like we are used to, but survival. Which of the two options is “moral” in this environment?

[exostrike]

I never said that mankind had to ask the Na'vi for help in setting up a base. Just that Jake could decide between letting them set up their base or driving them to extinction in a final war.

Anyway we needn't send a colony to Pandora if humanity will become extinct anyway. We could have used them as relativistic kill vehicles instead and burn Pandora making the Na'vi extinct as well in one final act of revenge.

[dmeephd]

Exostrike, you sound as crazy as Quaritch!

Now I understand why you have neither the knowledge of morality nor any morals.

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

Neither humanity, nor any species for that matter, has the right to invade the home of another sentient species and take what they want without permission. Period. Your need does not justify your theft, no more than an addict's need for a fix justifies his breaking into your home and stealing your money. You have a right to defend yourself, and shoot him (depending where you live). So too do the Na'vi.

Unfortunately, we've come to expect little else from Homo sapiens; time and again we've done it to ourselves. We took the Native Americans food supply, and then their lands. Finally, we took their culture. We did the same to the indigenous of Australia and New Zealand. And we tried pretty much everywhere in Africa.

That's the cautionary tale within Avatar: Homo sapiens takes what they want when they have the firepower. "Might makes right!'

Now your premise is essentially the same robber baron mentality, except you've sugar-coated it with desperation. Mankind faces extinction, so that gives him the right to rape another world, destroy the ecology, and turn Pandora into a wasteland like Earth?

To what end? How long will the Unobtainium last? How will it repair an ecology that's well past the tipping point? And who is next on the exploitation parade? (Perhaps the next species that Homo sapiens encounters is far superior and simply bitch slaps us into extinction.)

This is 2012. We have an opportunity to stop Global Climate Change. We've known about it for decades and done nothing except ban CFCs. We expect the Na'vi in the year 2154 to pay for our mistakes.

funny thing...i was always taught that you have to clean up your own mess.

well said,dmeephd,and i second Porthos welcome of you to the hallowed pages of AF.

[Foxhound]

If you gain your survival but lose your soul have you won?
War should be avoided at all costs. Even if Humanity's survival is at stake fighting should not be an option unless all other options are tried. That includes begging on hands and knees for land. If fighting was absolutely necessary for the survival of mankind and ALL other options had been tried and had failed, then it should be done as clean and humanly as possible.
But once again War should only be used as last resort.

[Scott]

Steal a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child. Is it good or bad? Somethings will never have an easy answer. Consequences from the simpliest things can snowball into an avalanche and change everything. I could choose the most noblest, self-sacrificing route and still not have a clue how the snowball will roll. I have to rely on something that has many different names and many different meanings to get past unknowable. It answered your question the moment I saw it.

[tm20]

i think this is one of those scenarios where you cant give an honest answer to until you are in this exact scenario. it's easy to say "ooh yeah, i'll get my revenge on the Na'vi, i'll pull the trigger on them, i'll bomb their hometree then i'll reclaim Pandora for the humans" but to actually do it? nah i don't think you would. if a Na'vi opened their arms to you and offered you shelter and others stuff i doubt you would have the guts to shoot them, even if it was how to reclaim Pandora. just think of the final scene in the Dark Knight where the people on the 2 boats have to detonate each other before they get killed. there's the tough guy who says he's going to push the button but ends up not doing it. i'd say that's morality, something which i'm sure everyone has despite what they say.

[Raidrik]

We'd learn from our mistakes and be careful not to make the same mistakes on Pandora. I will say though, if I must pick between an entire tribe of Na'vi and a single, honest; good human, I side with my species. That said, considering Pandora's atmosphere, I would hope they use a Avatar esque program to help get by; but I would especially hope 'there be no traitors amongst their ranks' and the morality to continue their true species (humanity) overrides some jungle born dream.


As for the Na'vi hospitality, I certainly hope the species is capable of the level of forgiveness and generosity I've seen in some very grand examples of humanity. I also would pray they aren't capable of such malice, or drive for vengeance. ALOT of Na'vi died in the RDA attack, so sore feelings would likely still be active

This is 2012. We have an opportunity to stop Global Climate Change. We've known about it for decades and done nothing except ban CFCs. We expect the Na'vi in the year 2154 to pay for our mistakes.

Ok, you seriously lost me right when you said that. No one takes the 2012 seriously anymore, and the amount of evidence AGAINST man-made global warming is stacking up at a staggering rate