Ikran "Cheating"? Toruk and other Ikran?

[will]

Ikran and Toruk have six limbs (four wings and two legs).

No, Ikran has four limbs, Toruk has six. If you look closely at a seated Ikran you will see that it perches on its two rear 'legs' that have wings attached to them. However, the Toruk stands on two completely separate legs from it's limbs attached to its rear wings.

Toruk;


Ikran:


And if that wasn't enough evidence, here is also a quote from the Pandorapedia (link):

The Na'vi are also one of only a very few vertebrate tetrapods (four limbs) among a bestiary filled with hexapods (six limbs). The other notable exception is the Ikran (banshee), which also appears to be unique among Pandora's flying vertebrates for having only one pair of primary wings. The Ikran's secondary wings are extensions of their rear legs. All other flying genus identified so far, (such as the Great Leonopteryx) possess two pair of wings and dedicated hind legs

The pandorapedia can be considered 'as official as it gets' (it's linked from the official Avatar webpages).

Will

[BlueMonkeyBoy]

Personally, I think some here are thinking incorrectly about what an Ikran or Toruk "choosing" a rider really means.

Jakes asks Neytiri, "How will I know if he chooses me?"
Neytiri responds with, "He will try to kill you."

It doesn't have to have any deeper of a meaning than that.

An Ikran is CHOOSING you, is when they try to KILL you. Choosing = kill.

It doesn't mean the Ikran or Toruk is thinking 'hey buddy, I'm choosing you to ride me,' I mean, what animal on any world ever WANTS to be ridden any way? It also doesn't mean 'I'm choosing you as a meal for dinner.' All it means is that they're not afraid of you and will try to kill you.

With that said, yes, the scene where Toruk primarily is trying to kill Jake can be thought of as the scene Toruk is "choosing" him.

It makes sense for people like the Na'Vi to bond with an animal that isn't a scared pos. They choose to bond with the ones that have no fear of them.

Just for the sake of argument, when Neytiri said that, she was talking about the Ikran, not the Toruk. The fact that they have a different number of limbs could hint at a different ancestry, evolution-wise, and so there really isn't a way to infer that the rule of thumb for one species would be the same for the other (if indeed they are different. I don't know if they would be or not, the number of limbs does hint at it, but how would two different flying lizards evolve to look so similar from different backgrounds, you know? the odds would be astronomical). As for the whole which Ikran "choosing" them aspect, it could be the fact that the larger Ikran would not be afraid of the Na'vi coming, and so they would look upon the Na'vi as a possible food source and not fly away afraid like the smaller Ikran. So the fact of only capturing Ikran that would try to kill you could be twofold. Not only do you get the "braver" of the Ikran, but also the larger ones, the ones that were big and strong enough to carry a rider for long distances. So, the Toruk may be "choosing" Jake, merely by trying to eat him. The fact that it had only been done a few times could have less to do with the Toruk actually choosing the riders, than merely the people being attacked by the Toruk living and making tsahaylu with the Toruk. I mean, those that survive such an attack probably don't come back looking for seconds unless if there is indeed a great need, a Great Sorrow. Then they would obviously risk it to save the People, and thus a Toruk Makto is born. In case you didn't notice, I love a good debate

[Hydra Makto]

As for the whole which Ikran "choosing" them aspect, it could be the fact that the larger Ikran would not be afraid of the Na'vi coming, and so they would look upon the Na'vi as a possible food source and not fly away afraid like the smaller Ikran. So the fact of only capturing Ikran that would try to kill you could be twofold. Not only do you get the "braver" of the Ikran, but also the larger ones, the ones that were big and strong enough to carry a rider for long distances. So, the Toruk may be "choosing" Jake, merely by trying to eat him. The fact that it had only been done a few times could have less to do with the Toruk actually choosing the riders, than merely the people being attacked by the Toruk living and making tsahaylu with the Toruk. I mean, those that survive such an attack probably don't come back looking for seconds unless if there is indeed a great need, a Great Sorrow.

Those were exactly my points hehe. I used the exchange between Neytiri and Jake about choosing because I feel we can assume that, even though the Toruk and Ikran are different, "choosing" works the same way with both of them.

Jakes asks Neytiri, "How will I know if he chooses me?"
Neytiri responds with, "He will try to kill you."

It doesn't have to have any deeper of a meaning than that.

An Ikran CHOOSING you, is when they try to KILL you. Choosing = kill.

The reason for killing you doesn't matter here, it can be in self defense, for food, whatever...the bottom line is that the Ikran's attempt to kill you = the Ikran choosing you...in the eyes of the Na'Vi, simple as that.

Now, the reason I believe this concept carries over to the Toruk, is because of Jake and Neytiri's conversation about her great great grandfather. She says, "Toruk chose him." At this point, she knows that Jake knows how "choosing" works already (because she explained it to him before capturing his Ikran). That's really my only support for that... It is absolutely possible that "choosing" does not work the same way with a Toruk, but as we see with Jake's capture of his Toruk, it can be done forcefully if needed.

[Avatarguy004]

Two different species. Different rules apply. The Ikran chose Jake yes, Toruk didn't have to. Jake will continue to have the "bond" with both. It's not "cheating."

[odysseus]

Na'vi mating for life is a social thing:

the script, p96 seems to say Neytiri could change her mind -

Mo'At knows the deed is done, but says "if you choose ..."

TSU’TEY
(subtitled)
These aliens kill everything they touch,
like poison.

MO'AT
Neytiri! If you choose this path, you can
never be Tsahik. Your life will be
wasted.
Neytiri looks at her mother -- sees the grief in her eyes.

NEYTIRI
I have chosen.

Jake only had one Ikran during the film - when he's in the wasteland it's his personal Ikran who flies down to meet him:

HIS BANSHEE -- bonded for life -- flaps down to a landing in
front of him. He steps to it, and strokes its head.
(2005 scriptment)

Regarding the ability for Na'vi to take another Ikran it's hard to know whether this is possible. We know from the scriptment that once two Na'vi are mated, (remember that Nav'i mating involves Tsaheylu) they are mated for life, so since this is a mutual thing (male and female are both permanently bonded) one would guess that permanent mutual bonds do exist on Pandora. This would pose a problem for widows of Na'vi aytaronyu since they would likely remain widows for life. This has interesting consequences on the anthropology on Pandora, since the death of a spouse is so much more damaging too the community, it's likely this (and their believe in Eywa and general pacifist ways) that means there is little inter-clan warfare on Pandora.

Tsaheylu with pa'li (and probably paluluka) is non permanent, as specifically stated in the movie.

It's possible that the permanence of the Tsaheylu between Ikran and Na'vi is related to their common ancestry - Na'vi and Ikran are the only two creatures on Pandora we see with only four limbs. If this theory is correct then Tsaheylu with Toruk is likely fleeting as well.

My personal guess is that Neytiri will be able to take another Ikran, but nobody will be able to be Tsaheylu with Jake's Toruk again since that bond would be permanent (but people could Tsaheylu with other aytoruk if they wanted)

Will

[Captain Avatar's Avatar]

Yeah, I am not sure why Jake said "you are not going to like it".
Is it because of the "cheating" or that its dangerous?

I don't know... do we ever see Jake's original ikran again in the movie? (Imagines Toruk munching on Jake's ikran while Jake fumbles with Toruk's antenna--"Thanks for the diversion, old pal!" JK, of course!)

[RDA Zoologist]

I've always been bothered that Jake simply released the Toruk. "No longer needed"? Dude, that's a giant flying animal, and your just going to release it!? Besides, who knows if the next time Jake meets the Toruk, it might try to eat him. It might remember him, but if it doesn't, then Jake would be screwed. Still, I think it was a bad idea that he released it. However, that's a good thing for hs Ikran.

[_Omaticaya_]

Well, Jake's story with Toruk has always been pretty particular, but I just came to the coclusion it's all ok, he's Toruk Makto, and it all went how it had to go. The fact he has an Ikran is normal, because he couldn't have become a 'Taronyu' in the first place if he hadn't had his own Ikran, that's the final stage of becoming a hunter, as Neyney explains So I think, even after Jake becomes Toruk Makto, his Ikran is still his, whenever he needs it, and Toruk, well, he risked his life trying to ride him, and it went well, meant he was 'The One', and releasing Toruk at the end seems totally normal to me, there was no need for him anymore, so he went back to being the 'biggest one in the sky' ^_^