Urgent! Dam to destroy native peoples of brazil! *please* sign the petition!!!

[applejuice]

Don't even pretend to be a "devils advocate", please. That term is for people who actually do not believe what they say after that statement, but say so to explore the thought of the other side. In your case, that statement is what you believe and thus it is not a "devils advocacy", but just your own opinion or belief.

Note taken

These kinds of things are why I dislike Star Trek more and more.
Though this is a different kind of situation in 2 ways.
For once the perceived needs of many do NOT outweigh the rights of few. To have a computer and internet and fracking sports events(!!) is not a need, it is a "want". On the other side a living ecosystem and a living river and a living forest is actually what the indigenous people really need to survive. If it is destroyed or taken from them, they will die - individually and as a culture. That is not a "want", it is truely a need.

Well, that's something we will have to ask the Brazilians... Right now, they depend on my country for their Natural Gas supply and electricity in several cities. The project was conceived to put an end to that (mainly because my country is extremely flickery with the compromises it has made, especially after Evo). As painful as it sounds, the most likely response is that most people will decide to go on with the construction of the dam because they are not giving up a better (IMHO) lifestyle than the one the indigenous people have.
Ah, one more thing, to say a Brazilian "I don't want you to host the World Cup because I think is a bit frivolous" is blasphemy to their ears. Football is the official religion in Brazil, almost to the level of Catholicism.

Or to put it bluntly - I do not see how the desire to have computers and flatscreen TVs overrules the need for survival of a few indigenous people even if it is really a lot of people who want these gadgets.

The true is that such needs will certainly overrule the need for survival of the few indigenous people. There are 190 million Brazilians, of which indigenous account for about 0.28% of that number.
You don't see the need of having a new TV or computer as something that should outweigh the need of a tribe, but that's because you were born in a place where having a TV or computer is something normal. Brazil is coming out of poverty and a large part of the population will want to have such things because those things are something new and nice to their eyes. They are something cool to have and are much better than the things they've had experienced before. They are coming out from the favelas, from a violent environment to another that will allow them to experience things that were unreachable for them during a long time.

And secondly, who do you count in that equation? As usually only humans, right? An anthropocentric view. But if you count nonhumans as well, the odds are very different. There are certainly billions of nonhumans whose needs are destroyed by the "needs" of the couple of humans profiting from that dam. And thousands of species whose very survival, the most basic of all needs depends on this dam not to be built. If all the insects and birds and fish and animals of the forest would be given a voice, if the river itself would be given a voice and all the trees and plants that live on the nutrients and sediment transported downstream by the river - if all of them would be heard as they speak up and given a voice in that decision, it would never get going, especially not after that equation you mentioned.

I can only account for humans for the mere reason that I cannot speak to the trees or plants. That does not mean that I don't care about animals or plants or the whole environment. I do, and most people do. But to try to put to the same level as humans the trees and plants or animals is just not right.

[FoxGhost]

The true is that such needs will certainly overrule the need for survival of the few indigenous people. There are 190 million Brazilians, of which indigenous account for about 0.28% of that number.
You don't see the need of having a new TV or computer as something that should outweigh the need of a tribe, but that's because you were born in a place where having a TV or computer is something normal. Brazil is coming out of poverty and a large part of the population will want to have such things because those things are something new and nice to their eyes. They are something cool to have and are much better than the things they've had experienced before. They are coming out from the favelas, from a violent environment to another that will allow them to experience things that were unreachable for them during a long time.

I can only account for humans for the mere reason that I cannot speak to the trees or plants. That does not mean that I don't care about animals or plants or the whole environment. I do, and most people do. But to try to put to the same level as humans the trees and plants or animals is just not right.

And there, in a nutshell, is the attitude that will drive us to extinction.You are talking about destroying was swathes of forest and the lives of people so people can have LUXURY.I would love to say that it suprises me to find people who would find that ok, but i've seen too much not to know the rot of the human heart.Good of the many over the good of the few? Well allright then.How about we of the northern hemisphere take the south american rainforests in to protective custody by force? They are a key part of the global ecosystem and the governments there certainly don't seem to be capable of defending them.Still feeling like whipping out that card?

[applejuice]

And there, in a nutshell, is the attitude that will drive us to extinction.You are talking about destroying was swathes of forest and the lives of people so people can have LUXURY.I would love to say that it suprises me to find people who would find that ok, but i've seen too much not to know the rot of the human heart.Good of the many over the good of the few? Well allright then.How about we of the northern hemisphere take the south american rainforests in to protective custody by force? They are a key part of the global ecosystem and the governments there certainly don't seem to be capable of defending them.Still feeling like whipping out that card?

I'm being realistic, I'm not Brazilian, I can only express my opinion as a single person and should be taken as such.
Wasn't the foreign intervention a crucial theme in Avatar? Not only you are suggesting to do so, you are taking it to terms of brute force. This problem concerns Brazil and, unfortunately, they will have to decide for themselves, for good or evil. I thing a common person in Brazil would say "so, not only they are telling us that we cannot have computers or afford to buy new TVs, they are also telling us what to do in OUR land!!!" And if one wants to go a bit resent, then a lot of people would say "So, they can have their computers, their high-speed internet, satellite TV and they dare to use those means to say us that we shouldn't be using them because it's a luxury..."

[FoxGhost]

I'm being realistic, I'm not Brazilian, I can only express my opinion as a single person and should be taken as such.
Wasn't the foreign intervention a crucial theme in Avatar? Not only you are suggesting to do so, you are taking it to terms of brute force. This problem concerns Brazil and, unfortunately, they will have to decide for themselves, for good or evil. I thing a common person in Brazil would say "so, not only they are telling us that we cannot have computers or afford to buy new TVs, they are also telling us what to do in OUR land!!!" And if one wants to go a bit resent, then a lot of people would say "So, they can have their computers, their high-speed internet, satellite TV and they dare to use those means to say us that we shouldn't be using them because it's a luxury..."

I gave that as an extreme example of where the 'good of the many over the good of the few' leads.In this case, the good of the many would demand that the great rainforests would be preserved by any means necessary.If the survival of the species is at stake, nobody is going to give a damn what people living there think of it.But we are neither at that point (yet...) nor do we think like that.
I'm being a realist as well.It is simply not possible for 7 billion people to live like the 'western' world does.Not even the so-called western world can afford it anymore.The system is coming apart at the seams everywhere.It was based on the lies of infinite resources and infinite growth.Now we are speeding towards the wall and its too late to pull the break.With some steep curbing of consumption, protection of vital areas (Including forests.You know, the lungs of the planet) and cutting all slack in every area of daily life we may salvage some sort of a future for the species till we reach the stars.Or we endure a calamity that cuts our numbers down to a more sustainable level.Take your pick.All other roads lead to wars and end in extinction.

[applejuice]

As you say, we haven't reached that point, yet. The Brazilian government will take a decision on this based on facts, even if the foreseeable future looks grim as you describe. The probable result will be the "all clear" for the construction of the dam. While the system may be coming apart in many places, that's not the case for Brazil, but that belongs to another discussion.

[AuroraGlacialis]

As painful as it sounds, the most likely response is that most people will decide to go on with the construction of the dam because they are not giving up a better (IMHO) lifestyle than the one the indigenous people have.

Oh I did not say that they are stopping it. Actually I think they will go ahead with it and most people in Brazil will agree because of course they want all that crap that we have here, because like us they are detaching themselves from the consequences. As Prof. Jared Diamond explains, a society in which those who make the decisions are dissociated from the consequences of their actions is on the road to collapse....

Ah, one more thing, to say a Brazilian "I don't want you to host the World Cup because I think is a bit frivolous" is blasphemy to their ears. Football is the official religion in Brazil, almost to the level of Catholicism.

Frankly, I don't care - they can certainly host that sports event if they want, but one thing I never get is why these countries hosting such events - also the Olympics - have to make such a fuzz about it, building new stadiums and roads and all that. But I dont get public sport events anyways...also Catholicism...

The true is that such needs will certainly overrule the need for survival of the few indigenous people. There are 190 million Brazilians, of which indigenous account for about 0.28% of that number.

Yes, that is the flaw in majority democracy - the majority decides over the fate of a minority. And as they are disconnected from the consequences, they can happily decide for more electricity and more cars because it is not they who have to pay for it.

You don't see the need of having a new TV or computer as something that should outweigh the need of a tribe, but that's because you were born in a place where having a TV or computer is something normal. Brazil is coming out of poverty and a large part of the population will want to have such things because those things are something new and nice to their eyes. They are something cool to have and are much better than the things they've had experienced before. They are coming out from the favelas, from a violent environment to another that will allow them to experience things that were unreachable for them during a long time.

Oh I can certainly understand the desire to have all this crap, especially when you come from a place that has no indigenous culture but only poverty, because the ancestors have been driven into poverty - either because someone took their indigenous land or because they were kicked out of the culture they lived in. Of course I can understand that desire - I also do like some of the things of course, like watching a certain movie in 3D or even at a home cinema. And I like to have a warm bath and a washing machine. And yes, I was born into this, but that explicitly gives me the ability to judge about it, because I have seen it. And because I have researched and seen the consequences of this lifestyle. Maybe everyone first has to have all this crap to realize that this is not what makes him happy, but I would hope that humans as intelligent beings know better. Material gadgets rarely make people happy in the long run. Some things do - like having ample time to do what one likes to do, to have a family and community, to have social connections, to have food and to be healthy. That list is in some parts helped by industrial civilization, but in more parts it is diminished and replaced by a desire for material wealth and the short addictive rush of getting more of that to be happy.

I can only account for humans for the mere reason that I cannot speak to the trees or plants. That does not mean that I don't care about animals or plants or the whole environment. I do, and most people do. But to try to put to the same level as humans the trees and plants or animals is just not right.

I think it is. There is not really much that makes human so superior on an ethical level. Humans have power and might, but They do not have some superior or more valuable stand in terms of this planets ecology. I can probably not speak for animals and plants because I have not listened to them for most of my life. I try to do so and listen to what they want. Usually they want to live and continue to be and just exist. I think that I can say pretty much with certainty because that is what all beings want.
"It is just not right" does not really count for me, because it is a statement that comes from outside, it seems like something you say because you learned it that way. It is a cultural assumption or based on such, like the superiority of humans. And I think many indigenous cultures would disagree (unless they have been swept away already). But that probably does not count, because they are <1% of the people of this planet.

[applejuice]

I agree with you. I think that what has been exposed is a path that developing countries will take. But I'm optimistic. I think that when people here gets a decent living (by decent I mean to have clean water and air available, food at affordable prices and efficient systems of transportation) they will start looking after their natural resources. Only a fraction (I hope a small fraction) will turn to greed but with enough education I think there won't be any problems.
*Note that guaranteeing clean air and water almost immediately implies the basic conservation rules.

[applejuice]

It's official, Brazil is backing the construction of the dam.

[Tsyal Makto]

Son of a...

May they all rot in hell.

[AuroraGlacialis]

Yeah - so much for the effectiveness of signing petitions.
Sigh

Brazil's environment agency has backed construction of a hydro-electric dam in the Amazon, opposed by indigenous groups and environmentalists.
The agency, Ibama, said the Belo Monte dam on the Xingu River had been subjected to "robust analysis" of its impact on the environment.
The government says the dam is key to meeting Brazil's growing energy needs.
But opponents argue it will harm the world's largest tropical rainforest and displace tens of thousands of people.
In January, Ibama gave the go-ahead for initial work to begin on the site on the Xingu, a tributary of the Amazon River.
Now, Ibama has issued the penultimate licence that the Norte Energia consortium building the dam needs.

"if they are sitting on stuff they want, they just have to go". This makes me incredibly mad - tens of thousands of people will have to go, many of them will die as in the Volta Dam displacement. And all for what - aluminium beer cans and economic profit... :(