back to the third world as animal drugs fail

[brianct]

western medicine fails once again, and has to turn to traditional medicine:

Vets turn to African herbs as animal drugs stop working
Ecologist

19th February, 2010

The west's veterinary drug drive is not working, say animal disease scientists who have started researching the effectiveness of plant-based treatments used in Ethiopia
Traditional plant-based treatments used by Ethiopian farmers are to be tested by a team of scientists from the Scottish Agricultural College (SAC).

Researchers will visit the East African country and select 30 plants used by native herdsman to control parasites in their animals. These will then be taken to laboratories in Ethiopia and Scotland to test for their effectiveness.

'Like farmers across the world they often do things because their fathers and grandfathers did. Our idea is to find out if and how they work and to feed that information back to the farmers,' said project leader Dr Jos Houdijk.

Drugs not working

Dr Houdijk said the project was a recognition that it was time to look for alternatives to the veterinary drugs on which farmers in industrialised countries had become reliant to control animal diseases.

'When these drugs were introduced in the west in the 1960s we thought they would solve all our problems but we couldn't have been more wrong.

'Nowadays the parasites are becoming resistant and the consumer is becoming more aware about having products that have a minimum use of drugs. Alternative medicines are coming into fashion again.'

The project is one of 16 others given funding to look into helping Sub-Saharan and South Asian farmers tackle the spread of livestock diseases.

Sheep and chicory

The SAC has already undertaken research on how sheep grazed on chicory have fewer worm problems that those grazed on conventional pastures.

Dr Houdijk said farmers in Ethiopia and other less industrialised countries did not have the same reliance on veterinary drugs because of access, cost and knowledge about their proper use.

'What we've done is come a full circle where we are looking into using the kind of medicines that were used 70 years ago.

'We now need to demonstrate and prove to all farmers that these alternatives do work,' he said.

News - Vets turn to African herbs as animal drugs stop working - The Ecologist (http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_round_up/419514/vets_turn_to_african_herbs_as_animal_drugs_stop_wo rking.html)

thiis just one eg of the many failures of the modern synthetic approach, which the boffins never learn from!

[Aihwa]

Dont be poo poo ing modern medicine. It may have many blind spots, but its positives more than make up for it.

Examples: Insulin, most surgery, organ transplants, vaccinations...

[Txen]

Dont be poo poo ing modern medicine. It may have many blind spots, but its positives more than make up for it.

Examples: Insulin, most surgery, organ transplants, vaccinations...

Uh oh you said "vaccinations." Better get ready for an earful , er, I mean screenfull of a reply.

For myself I'm with you 100%. As far as I'm concerned if some natural things work there is no reason not to use them, but I wouldn't even be here to post this without modern medicine.

[brianct]

Dont be poo poo ing modern medicine. It may have many blind spots, but its positives more than make up for it.

Examples: Insulin, most surgery, organ transplants, vaccinations...

you may like to investigate those issues a bit further...esp the vaccinations!

and to answer Txen, he may be here because of modern western medicine ,but hundreds of thousands would also be here had they avoided it!

http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html

its called iatrogenesis

[Aihwa]

you may like to investigate those issues a bit further...esp the vaccinations!

and to answer Txen, he may be here because of modern western medicine ,but hundreds of thousands would also be here had they avoided it!

Death by Medicine (http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html)

its called iatrogenesis

Ahh, yeah, the gub'mints been poisoning me with my vaccinations. -_-

[Txen]

Hey I try to avoid doctors whenever possible. On occasion you might need one. For me it was a minor skin infection that turned into cellulitis. The prognosis for that is not good. A little modern semi synthetic antibiotics and I was good to go. Happened more than once. I made the choice to treat myself better and it's not been a problem for years.

[brianct]

Ahh, yeah, the gub'mints been poisoning me with my vaccinations. -_-

not the govt: the drug companies, which control the FDA and so the government...

also FYI
WHO is in trouble...
you may recall Swine flu and iyts treatment: Tamiflu(made by Rumsfelds company)

'The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) will launch an inquiry in January 2010 on the influence of the pharmaceutical companies on the global swine flu campaign, focusing especially on extent of the pharma‘s industry’s influence on WHO. The Health Committee of the PACE, a body representing 47 European nations including Russia, has unanimously passed a resolution calling for the inquiry. The step is a long-overdue move to public transparency of a “Golden Triangle” of drug corruption between WHO, the pharma industry and academic scientists that has permanently damaged the lives of millions and even caused death.'
Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly to Investigate WHO and “Pandemic” Scandal (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16667)

[Aihwa]

That site is focusing on "globalization."


That smacks of a conspiracy website. I don't do conspiracies.

[brianct]

That site is focusing on "globalization."


That smacks of a conspiracy website. I don't do conspiracies.

really? Never hear of Watergate?

I guess you just trust the experts:

Amazon.com: Trust Us, We're Experts: How Industry Manipulates Science and gambles with Your Future (9781585420599): Sheldon Rampton, John Stauber: Books

meanwhile...this is a boner!

'Nobody bothered to check the machine
The facts of this case are a bit frightening because this could happen anywhere, in any hospital: For the last five years, patients undergoing brain irradiation treatments have been over-exposed to very high levels of radiation. The radiation machine at the CoxHealth hospital in Springfield, Missouri was apparently never calibrated correctly. The incompetent technicians who set up the machine (who probably lost their own brain function as a result of being around so many miscalibrated radiation machines) apparently never bothered to configure it correctly. They just used the default setting the machine came with, which happened to be the "Fry my brain" setting.'

Oops! Brain cancer patients over-irradiated with miscalibrated radiotherapy machines (http://www.naturalnews.com/028258_radiotherapy_brain_cancer.html)

[Aihwa]

really? Never hear of Watergate?


Watergate a conspiracy? No. Conspiracies have lizard people from Planet X conspiring with the NWO to kill babies...

[brianct]

Watergate a conspiracy? No. Conspiracies have lizard people from Planet X conspiring with the NWO to kill babies...

conspiracy: where two or more people get together in secret to plot a crime...

as for your 'definition' :rotfl:

please!

[Aihwa]

conspiracy: where two or more people get together in secret to plot a crime...

as for your 'definition' :rotfl:

please!


Perhaps the definition, but when I call a site a "conspiracy site" I'm talking about the evil NWO plot...

[Txen]

What is wrong with me... here I go again. When will I learn. Probably never.

Vaccinations are a risk evaluation. Nothing is without risk. In my estimation almost all vaccines are less risky than the disease. Two in particular come to mind. In these case the vaccines are so effective that the diseases are almost extinct. Those would be polio and smallpox. You talked about "hundreds of thousands." Just these two vaccines have saved hundreds of millions. Maybe billions. Mumps or the Measles in an adult are no joke either.

Sometimes I wonder what kind of world you wish to see. I see a lot of alarmism from you. One thing you have to remember is how tough life used to be. A few hundred years ago life was brutal and short. People had to work from constantly just to survive. Life was nasty brutish and short. Leisure time was non existent. We live better than kings of a those days of old.

[brianct]

What is wrong with me... here I go again. When will I learn. Probably never.

Vaccinations are a risk evaluation. Nothing is without risk. In my estimation almost all vaccines are less risky than the disease. Two in particular come to mind. In these case the vaccines are so effective that the diseases are almost extinct. Those would be polio and smallpox. You talked about "hundreds of thousands." Just these two vaccines have saved hundreds of millions. Maybe billions. Mumps or the Measles in an adult are no joke either.

Sometimes I wonder what kind of world you wish to see. I see a lot of alarmism from you. One thing you have to remember is how tough life used to be. A few hundred years ago life was brutal and short. People had to work from constantly just to survive. Life was nasty brutish and short. Leisure time was non existent. We live better than kings of a those days of old.

why take a substance thats risky when ther are safer alternatives?
Alarmism? Its called informing. Or do you think patients shouldnt be alarmed by the warning labels: eg on Prozac one is " can cause suicide ideation'.

Sorry but your billions saved is really over the top.,..

Life wasnt brutkl and short till people began to live in pest ridden cities and ignored basic sanitation.

But WHOA! are you saying the NA'VI have lives that are nasty brutish and short? Thats what the humans at hells gates may believe...

[Aihwa]

why take a substance thats risky when ther are safer alternatives?
Alarmism? Its called informing. Or do you think patients shouldnt be alarmed by the warning labels: eg on Prozac one is " can cause suicide ideation'.

Sorry but your billions saved is really over the top.,..

Life wasnt brutkl and short till people began to live in pest ridden cities and ignored basic sanitation.

But WHOA! are you saying the NA'VI have lives that are nasty brutish and short? Thats what the humans at hells gates may believe...

Please inform us to these "safer alternatives", to say... Polio.

go.

[brianct]

Please inform us to these "safer alternatives", to say... Polio.

go.

what do you know about polio and its causes? Probably very little.

is it worth the effort to open your eyes? Probably not..AS i can tell your a hard core denialist..but for anyone else reading this , i suggest you check out the following...Lets see if your eyes are open:

Afar safer alternative for polio was found back in 1948:


DIET IS MAJOR FACTOR IN POLIO PREVENTION (http://www.whale.to/v/sandler13.html)
http://www.seleneriverpress.com/media/pdf_docs/34_DietPreventsPolioCh2.pdf

anyonee who thinks this is not true, will have first to test it.

[Aihwa]

One of the major rules in debating, is posting current information. WWII isn't exactly current...

[brianct]

One of the major rules in debating, is posting current information. WWII isn't exactly current...

i knew youd use a dodge ball tactic...well for your info this is the pioneering research, Its there, you can read..

By that arguement id like you to show me current reseach on the safety and efficacy of polio vaccines...happy hunting.

also youd need to show the research is independent adn show evidence of funding etc

[Aihwa]

i knew youd use a dodge ball tactic...well for your info this is the pioneering research, Its there, you can read..

By that arguement id like you to show me current reseach on the safety and efficacy of polio vaccines...happy hunting.

also youd need to show the research is independent adn show evidence of funding etc

Unfortunately, all my proof will be "corrupted" by the NWO that wants to rule the world. :nsad:

Polio Vaccine Questions and Answers (http://www.vaccineinformation.org/polio/qandavax.asp)


Of course, these are all lies fabricated by the NWO right?

There is no way to prevent or fight a virus. You can only prepare for the inevitable infection.

[brianct]

Unfortunately, all my proof will be "corrupted" by the NWO that wants to rule the world. :nsad:

Polio Vaccine Questions and Answers (http://www.vaccineinformation.org/polio/qandavax.asp)


Of course, these are all lies fabricated by the NWO right?

There is no way to prevent or fight a virus. You can only prepare for the inevitable infection.

well yes there are ways to deal with viral illnesses..but is it worth my while to talk about it?

[Aihwa]

Its your thread. I would think you wanted to talk about them.

[brianct]

Its your thread. I would think you wanted to talk about them.

well heres one
lauric acid from coconut oil...in the body as monolaurin, its antiviral, also antibacterial
monolaurin information (http://www.smartnutrition.info/info-monolaurin.htm)

[Aihwa]

Very nice, but isn't having your own bodies defenses rigged up as well just double win?

(ie: vaccinated)

[Grif]

The problem with every type of medicine is evolution.
No matter what we use, the strongest viruses or bacteria will survive.

[brianct]

Very nice, but isn't having your own bodies defenses rigged up as well just double win?

(ie: vaccinated)

a vaccine is a substance foreign to the body..and they can cause harm...eg MMR and autism.


The problem with every type of medicine is evolution.
No matter what we use, the strongest viruses or bacteria will survive.

thats only with synthetics eg antibiotics, so far as im aware

[joeylovesgaia]

Modern medicine is stronger than the traditional herbal kind. That can be a blessing, or a curse. Herbal medicine can't put you back together after a car wreck. But every drug commercial (too many of those lately) has a lot of fine print, or the verbal equivalent, listing all the side effects, some of which are worse than the disease. These strong medicines work by messing with the delicate organization of the body. Sometimes that's needed but the body is complex and we can't anticipate all its reactions. Herbal medicine is gentler and so has less potential for harm.

[brianct]

Modern medicine is stronger than the traditional herbal kind. That can be a blessing, or a curse. Herbal medicine can't put you back together after a car wreck. But every drug commercial (too many of those lately) has a lot of fine print, or the verbal equivalent, listing all the side effects, some of which are worse than the disease. These strong medicines work by messing with the delicate organization of the body. Sometimes that's needed but the body is complex and we can't anticipate all its reactions. Herbal medicine is gentler and so has less potential for harm.

its stronger because they foolishly isolate the active ingredient, treating the rest as dross...ironically, a method derived form the despised alchemy.

But any herbalist knows the 'dross' is important to keep the active ingredient from causing harm.

[Jacob]

why take a substance thats risky when ther are safer alternatives?

Such as?


Alarmism? Its called informing. Or do you think patients shouldnt be alarmed by the warning labels: eg on Prozac one is " can cause suicide ideation'.

It's not informing when people get on TV and shriek and yell about how vaccines cause autism or kill people. You know what often happens after children are refused vaccines? They (http://news.scotsman.com/health/Measles-kills-children-of-antivaccination.5929748.jp) die (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1243&dat=19721028&id=1ZcSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gvcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2937,2536254).


Life wasnt brutkl and short till people began to live in pest ridden cities and ignored basic sanitation.

Perhaps, but people have died of diseases like smallpox for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Then along comes modern medicine and in a few short centuries eliminates or drastically reduces such diseases.


But WHOA! are you saying the NA'VI have lives that are nasty brutish and short? Thats what the humans at hells gates may believe...

When will you come back to reality, brian?

[Mr.]

I can not understand

Because something is not natural, and made by big companys, it is evil?

Brian, look at the MMR and autism scare. It was made by someone who was talking a load of bollocks, nobody belives it anymore
Vaccines have saved thousands more than they have hurt.

[Nydra]

Vaccins do not cause autism. do you even have any idea what vaccins are? It's these nonsense fearmongering notions that cost lives. "traditional" medicine is rubbish, there's a reason we've switched to modern medicine. just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it's good. most things in nature are poisonous, and the substances that do have medicinal workings need to be refined and chemically altered to be used as proper medicine. Nature isn't altruistic. plants don't produce medicine for our benefit. Our combined knowledge of chemistry, biology and epidemiology has given us the opportunity to manufacture our medicine, for our own good.
Do you know what one of the biggest problems is in curing patients? -the patients themselves. most people wait so long before seeing a doctor that it's too late to do anything. this offcourse reinforces their false beliefs that modern medicine can't do anything. antibiotics alone have cut worldwide deaths by 30% that's MASSIVE. 1 out of 3 of us wouldn't be here if we didn'thave antibiotics. it's mindboggling to see some people revert back to medieval practices.

[Nydra]

thats only with synthetics eg antibiotics, so far as im aware

false, this happens with all antibiotics, or any drugs that exert selective pressure. the problem is that most "natural remedies" don't actually work that much, so they don't exert any real selective evolutionary pressure on the organisms.

[brianct]

Vaccins do not cause autism. do you even have any idea what vaccins are? It's these nonsense fearmongering notions that cost lives. "traditional" medicine is rubbish, there's a reason we've switched to modern medicine. just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it's good. most things in nature are poisonous, and the substances that do have medicinal workings need to be refined and chemically altered to be used as proper medicine. Nature isn't altruistic. plants don't produce medicine for our benefit. Our combined knowledge of chemistry, biology and epidemiology has given us the opportunity to manufacture our medicine, for our own good.
Do you know what one of the biggest problems is in curing patients? -the patients themselves. most people wait so long before seeing a doctor that it's too late to do anything. this offcourse reinforces their false beliefs that modern medicine can't do anything. antibiotics alone have cut worldwide deaths by 30% that's MASSIVE. 1 out of 3 of us wouldn't be here if we didn'thave antibiotics. it's mindboggling to see some people revert back to medieval practices.


this may interest you:
Death by Medicine* By Gary Null (http://www.whale.to/a/null9.html)

its on Iatrogenesis

[Nydra]

this may interest you:
Death by Medicine* By Gary Null (http://www.whale.to/a/null9.html)

its on Iatrogenesis

Vaccins are incredibly safe, it's one of their requirements. There's nothing about them in your article either. Still, I never said drugs don't have side effects. I'm saying it's mad to ignore their obvious very effective workings and effects. This brings with it that there will always be abuse, and that the right dosis/treatment is not always given in time. This however does not mean that we should revert to herbal and medieval "treatments", since they have almost no effect, and their side-effects are not to be underestimated.

[brianct]

Vaccins are incredibly safe, it's one of their requirements. There's nothing about them in your article either. Still, I never said drugs don't have side effects. I'm saying it's mad to ignore their obvious very effective workings and effects. This brings with it that there will always be abuse, and that the right dosis/treatment is not always given in time. This however does not mean that we should revert to herbal and medieval "treatments", since they have almost no effect, and their side-effects are not to be underestimated.

vaccines are not 'incredibly safe' and wishful thinking wont make them so.

Orthodox drugs are like russian roulette...esp the SSRIs.

Revert to herbs? Herbs are still in use and show no sign of going out of use.
ALSO SEE FIRST ARTICLE IN THREAD!

[Concerned RDA Shareholder]

Revert to herbs? Herbs are still in use and show no sign of going out of use.
ALSO SEE FIRST ARTICLE IN THREAD!

You might want to read the article more thoroughly yourself. As yet there is no conclusive evidence that any of these herbs actually work on the livestock. From the article:


'Like farmers across the world they often do things because their fathers and grandfathers did. Our idea is to find out if and how they work and to feed that information back to the farmers,' said project leader Dr Jos Houdijk.

If these herbs do indeed work, then great. We should incorporate them into our agricultural practices. But the fact that a team of Scots is studying some plants from Africa hardly means that modern medicine is a "failure."

[brianct]

You might want to read the article more thoroughly yourself. As yet there is no conclusive evidence that any of these herbs actually work on the livestock. From the article:



If these herbs do indeed work, then great. We should incorporate them into our agricultural practices. But the fact that a team of Scots is studying some plants from Africa hardly means that modern medicine is a "failure."

if they didnt work, the bods wouild not be investigating....ANd modern medicine is a failure and and dangerous one...see my post on IATROGENESIS above

[Concerned RDA Shareholder]

if they didnt work, the bods wouild not be investigating....ANd modern medicine is a failure and and dangerous one...see my post on IATROGENESIS above

No, the article is pretty clear that they don't know yet whether or not they work. All they know is that these farmers use them. Please read more carefully next time, and you will avoid simple misunderstandings like this.

[Spock]

If anyone wants an explanation on Antibiotics and Vaccinations, I would be happy to do so, considering I am a training biologist.

[brianct]

No, the article is pretty clear that they don't know yet whether or not they work. All they know is that these farmers use them. Please read more carefully next time, and you will avoid simple misunderstandings like this.

you seem intent on their not working..if they didnt work, the farmers would not use them, so they know they work...

you dont cause youve not tried them, as for the scientists, why investigate that that doesnt work?


If anyone wants an explanation on Antibiotics and Vaccinations, I would be happy to do so, considering I am a training biologist.

a biologist is not a doctor or a vaccine specialist

are u vaccine specialist?...whats your speciality?

I know enough about them to give them a wide berth:

fyi:
YouTube - Stephen Kay interview Vaccine injury from Mercury (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1TZUoG6mPk)

[Spock]

a biologist is not a doctor or a vaccine specialist

are u vaccine specialist?...whats your speciality?

I know enough about them to give them a wide berth:


Sounds to me like you don't want to hear the truth, biology is very broad, and covers a pandora of different areas. Vaccines easily fit well within biology. And i've said that i'm training, not a specialist, but my knowledge of vaccines is clearly cut enough to provide everyone here with an adequite understanding.

[brianct]

Sounds to me like you don't want to hear the truth, biology is very broad, and covers a pandora of different areas. Vaccines easily fit well within biology. And i've said that i'm training, not a specialist, but my knowledge of vaccines is clearly cut enough to provide everyone here with an adequite understanding.

still waiting for your credentials on vaccines..research? Papers published? Knowledge of side effects? etc etc

Yes, spock, it is slim.

Ask any vaccine specialist if any biologist can on the same level as them, sans training.. The result may surprise you

[Concerned RDA Shareholder]

you seem intent on their not working..

Says who? I never said they didnt work. I said we dont know yet if they work or not.


if they didnt work, the farmers would not use them, so they know they work...

No, read the article. The farmers use them because they've traditionally used them. Not necessarily because they work. There's a difference.


you dont cause youve not tried them

Obviously. And neither have you.


as for the scientists, why investigate that that doesnt work?

They haven't even determined yet if they do or do not work. That is the point of the current study. I've restated this same thing around 4 times now, so hopefully you understand where Im coming from?

[brianct]

Says who? I never said they didnt work. I said we dont know yet if they work or not.



No, read the article. The farmers use them because they've traditionally used them. Not necessarily because they work. There's a difference.



Obviously. And neither have you.



They haven't even determined yet if they do or do not work. That is the point of the current study. I've restated this same thing around 4 times now, so hopefully you understand where Im coming from?


sorry wrong..farmers do what they do because they work..they are not fools, but pragmatic. What the western scientists want to know is can they work for them, as their methods no longer work. You dont see these farmers going and asking the scientists: our methods dont work, what do you have?

i know where youre coming from...and i can tell where your going,,,nowhere..Im glad the skypeople have swallowed their pride to go to third world farmers for answers...After all third world farmers gave us the potato, corn, papaya, coconut, avocado etc etc...They have a lot they can teach.

Mo'at:' weve tried to teach other skypeople....'

[Spock]

still waiting for your credentials on vaccines..research? Papers published? Knowledge of side effects? etc etc

Yes, spock, it is slim.

Ask any vaccine specialist if any biologist can on the same level as them, sans training.. The result may surprise you

I can tell you that vaccines are very safe, all they do it introduce dilute ammounts of the virus in question into your body, your immune system will then adapt to fighting this particular virus, so when it does hit it will likely be defeated quite easily. Antibiotics work only to destroy bacteria, and they do this by negating bacterial life processes, not by actively killing the bacteria. The bacterial numbers will drop quickly from this point onwards.

Any argument or scientific paper that has been presented thus far on the dangers of vaccines have not stood up.

And I have asked a biologist, and that person explained how vaccines are of no danger, the results will suprise you far more than me. However I am sure that you will discard what i've just said and move back to your original defeated argument.

[Concerned RDA Shareholder]

You dont see these farmers going and asking the scientists: our methods dont work, what do you have?

Except thats exactly what they're doing. From the same article that you posted:


Our idea is to find out if and how they work and to feed that information back to the farmers,' said project leader Dr Jos Houdijk.

[Nydra]

a biologist is not a doctor or a vaccine specialist

are u vaccine specialist?...whats your speciality?

I know enough about them to give them a wide berth:



I'm a medicine student, would you like me to explain vaccins to you? Vaccines are very safe, but you don't want to believe this it seems. Bad things happen to people all the time, and if you're doing mass vaccinations there will inevitably be people who experience bad things after they have recieved their vaccin. This does not mean the vaccin caused this.
It can't, a vaccin is the very virus it protects you from, only weakened so it doesn't kill you.
You don't seem to grasp the priviledge you have of living in a vaccinated community free of disease. Let me give you some examples:



Diphtheria
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 175,885
Cases in 2003: 1
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%
Hib (<5 yrs old)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 20,000 (estimate)
Cases in 2003: 259
Decrease in cases per year: 98.8%
Measles
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 503,282
Cases in 2003: 56
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%
Mumps
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 152,209
Cases in 2003: 231
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%
Pertussis (whooping cough)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 147,271
Cases in 2003: 11,647
Decrease in cases per year: 92.1%
Polio (paralytic)
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 16,316
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%
Rubella
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 47,745
Cases in 2003: 7
Decrease in cases per year: 99.9%
Smallpox
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 48,164
Cases in 2003: 0
Decrease in cases per year: 100.0%
Tetanus
Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 1,314
Cases in 2003: 20
Decrease in cases per year: 98.5%

From Immunizations: Misconception #11 (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu00.html)

During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths. We've reduced these deaths to...here it comes...0! Zero, none, nil. Show me one of your "magoc herbs" that can do that. Medicine is based on good, hardworking science, it is this proces that makes our lives better and comfortable. It is was keeps us and our loved ones alive. To deny it is ignorant and dangerous.

[joeylovesgaia]

Yikes, this thread should be in the Debate forum. You guys sure like to argue :P

[brianct]

diseases declined before immunisation introduced:


"The decline in infectious diseases in developed countries had nothing to do with vaccinations, but with the decline in poverty and hunger."--Dr Buchwald, M.D.

"Up to 90% of the total decline in the death rate of children between 1860-1965 because of whooping cough, scarlet fever, diptheria, and measles occured before the introduction of immunisations and antibiotics."---Dr Archie Kalokerinos, M.D.

...
Table IV--reveals that in England and Wales there was a continuing decline in the annual death rate from smallpox, with a reduction in mortality of roughly 300 per million to virtually 0, taking place in the 60 year period following the middle of the last century. This table further illustrates that the progressive rate of decline was severely disrupted--with a roughly 275 percent increase in mortality from the disease--occurring immediately after smallpox vaccination laws were enforced.58



Disease decline before introduction of immunisation (http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html)

and:

'Ian Sinclair, writing on the history of smallpox, states:

"After an intensive four-year effort to vaccinate the entire population between the ages of 2 and 50, the Chief Medical Officer of England announced in May 1871 that 97.5% had been vaccinated. In the following year, 1872, England experienced its worst ever smallpox epidemic which claimed 44,840 lives.In the Philippines, prior to U.S. takeover in 1905, case mortality [death rate] from smallpox was about 10%.In 1918-1919, with over 95% of the population vaccinated, the worst epidemic in the Philippines' history occurred resulting in a case mortality of 65%.The 1920 Report of the Philippines Health Service [stated] 'hundreds of thousands of people were yearly vaccinated with the most unfortunate result that the 1918 epidemic looks prima facie as a flagrant failure of the classic immunization toward future epidemics.'"4

How can this be? How can these historical facts be reconciled with my earlier statement that a primary take in response to a first smallpox vaccination results in genuine cellular immunity for up to three years? The usual explanation offered is that the vaccine used was inactive due to loss of potency in storage, but this clearly cannot be the whole answer to the many documented instances of failure of smallpox vaccination to protect from smallpox. '

http://www.whale.to/a/incao.html#Part%20Three:%20Smallpox%20And%20Its%20 Vaccination

SO the REAL figures say that after smallpox vaccination, smallpox epidemics broke out!


so what was that again about vaccines ending disease?

smallpox vaccine damage in 2009!

'CINCINNATI -- An emergency room nurse filed a worker's compensation complaint last week against Good Samaritan Hospital over an injury she received during a smallpox vaccination.

Amy Alexander said she volunteered to receive the vaccine March 17, 2003, at the request of her manager.

According to the complaint, Alexander began to experience fatigue, poor nerve sensation, motion sickness, slurred speech, dizziness, double vision and tingling in her extremities.

Alexander fainted June 25, 2003, while working at the hospital, and the complaint alleges that hospital officials did not report her adverse effects to the Center for Disease Control, the Vaccine Adverse Reporting System or any state health officials.

The complaint also alleges that hospital officials failed to inform Alexander of the Smallpox Emergency Personnel Protection Act of 2003, which might have supplemented her medical costs and salary benefits if her problems had been reported within a year of the vaccination.

A physician at Compton Family Care became concerned in September 2003 after learning Alexander had been vaccinated for smallpox and referred her to the Cincinnati Health Department.

Additional medical tests revealed that Alexander suffered from post vaccine syndrome, the complaint alleges, and she later was diagnosed with acute disseminated encephalomyelitis, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome and peripheral neuropathy.'

etc
Hospital Charged In Complaint Over Smallpox Vaccine - Cincinnati News Story - WLWT Cincinnati (http://www.wlwt.com/news/20042562/detail.html)

[Lparsons7641]

Life wasnt brutkl and short till people began to live in pest ridden cities and ignored basic sanitation.

But WHOA! are you saying the NA'VI have lives that are nasty brutish and short? Thats what the humans at hells gates may believe...

Is that why life expectancies have climbed dramatically after the industrial revolution and urbanization? Is that why life expectancies are higher in developed countries?

Life wasn't brutal in the hunter gathererer days? Starving to death when you fail to hunt isn't brutal? Being killed by a lion isn't brutal?

I swear some of the people on this forum.......................they live in some other world where everyone on the planet needs to die in a plague to save it (except them of course) and we all need to go live in trees and eat raw meat to be in peace with the world.

[brianct]

Is that why life expectancies have climbed dramatically after the industrial revolution and urbanization? Is that why life expectancies are higher in developed countries?

Life wasn't brutal in the hunter gathererer days? Starving to death when you fail to hunt isn't brutal? Being killed by a lion isn't brutal?

I swear some of the people on this forum.......................they live in some other world where everyone on the planet needs to die in a plague to save it (except them of course) and we all need to go live in trees and eat raw meat to be in peace with the world.

life span fell with industrialism..and the push of people into polluted cities

Yes people were happier hunting and gathering...they didnt starve to death as their was always food...

Youre one more eg of modern ignorance of tribal peoples:

you should read this book:

Amazon.com: Stone Age Economics (9780202010991): Marshall Sahlins: Books

and dont forget the Na'vi were happy with what they had, as are similar peoples on earth.

LEARN TO SEE

and for your info,before the europeans came, there was no smallpox or malaria or other major eurpean diseases in the americas

[Life]

life span fell with industrialism..and the push of people into polluted cities

Yes people were happier hunting and gathering...they didnt starve to death as their was always food...

Youre one more eg of modern ignorance of tribal peoples:

you should read this book:

Amazon.com: Stone Age Economics (9780202010991): Marshall Sahlins: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Stone-Age-Economics-Marshall-Sahlins/dp/0202010996)

and dont forget the Na'vi were happy with what they had, as are similar peoples on earth.

LEARN TO SEE


How is it you debate fact and logic with pure myth, lies and, irrational ramblings...it's honestly ridiculous, you sound like a raving lunatic.

[brianct]

How is it you debate fact and logic with pure myth, lies and, irrational ramblings...it's honestly ridiculous, you sound like a raving lunatic.

i debate instutitonalised lie with fact and evidence...

as for myth... those are sacred stories, like the Songs mentioned in AVATAR...great movie,you may like to go see it!

modern ignorant urban society has turned
'myths' into a synonym for 'lies'.

[Lparsons7641]

life span fell with industrialism..and the push of people into polluted cities

Yes people were happier hunting and gathering...they didnt starve to death as their was always food...

Youre one more eg of modern ignorance of tribal peoples:

you should read this book:

Amazon.com: Stone Age Economics (9780202010991): Marshall Sahlins: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Stone-Age-Economics-Marshall-Sahlins/dp/0202010996)

and dont forget the Na'vi were happy with what they had, as are similar peoples on earth.

LEARN TO SEE

and for your info,before the europeans came, there was no smallpox or malaria or other major eurpean diseases in the americas


1. I know quite a bit about "tribal societies" whatever that means thanks.

2. The Americas were not an untouched wilderness devoid of disease before the Europeans came. (talk about myths)

3. Fascinating, so people lived longer in the stone age on average compared to now? There was higher infant mortality? I'd love to know where you learned that. Even WIKIPEDIA disagrees here.

In the 20th century alone life expectancies in the U.S rose 20-30 years. Infant mortality dropped like a rock as well. People in the medieval era and before were lucky to reach 40.

[punishingwrath]

Industrialism is the best thing to happen to humanity. That's such an obvious fact it doesn't warrant me saying anything else. Especially since any arguments anyone can come up with are being typed on a computer.

[Spock]

i debate instutitonalised lie with fact and evidence...

as for myth... those are sacred stories, like the Songs mentioned in AVATAR...great movie,you may like to go see it!

modern ignorant urban society has turned
'myths' into a synonym for 'lies'.

You debate institutionalised lie? No... you don't. And to say that you debate with fact and evidence is ghastly, as you only quote media institutions and homeopathic websites. And when you do quote something that carries a little more weight its rarely relevant.

And breaking rules all the time brianct doesn't get you anywhere, 72 hour bans and eventually full bans will be strapped onto your account.

[punishingwrath]

You debate institutionalised lie? No... you don't. And to say that you debate with fact and evidence is ghastly, as you only quote media institutions and homeopathic websites. And when you do quote something that carries a little more weight its rarely relevant.

And breaking rules all the time brianct doesn't get you anywhere, 72 hour bans and eventually full bans will be strapped onto your account.

I'm beginning to like this Spock fellow.

[Spock]

I'm beginning to like this Spock fellow.

:nsmile: