RDA shotting retreating Na'vis? Wtf?

[avatarman]

Anyone else noticed in the movies the RDA starts shooting the Na'Vi on ground as they are retreating? After they fall back, the helicopters come and shoot rockets. They were retreating!!!! Wtf!!!!!!

[Shatnerpossum]

Apparently you haven't noticed the history of warfare. A retreating enemy is even easier to pick off. Take a look at the Germans in the Falaise Gap during WW2.

[ProfoundHeart]

Well, what did you expect? For them to have Mercy? I don't think so, especially in the military.

[Purge]

RDA are scumbags, what more could you expect.

[avatarman]

RDA are scumbags, what more could you expect.

They were retreating! They faced no threat! And they had rockets against horses!!!

[Uniltìranyu]

They were retreating! They faced no threat! And they had rockets against horses!!!

In the eyes of the RDA they were animals anyway...

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

Like in my sig?.....

[Tihawnu]

As the saying goes all is fair in love and WAR

BTW I totally disagree with that above statement.

[Tsyal Makto]

*cough* Wounded Knee *cough*

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

*cough* wounded knee *cough*

ha ha! :)

[zongtseng]

It should be noted that there is no proper military in Avatar. They are mercenaries in the employ of a corporation, and have no rules and very little morality, obviously. RDA is designed in every way to show the worst of what corporations taking over will mean.

Being paid to kill is being paid to kill. The military of most countries at least has basic rules they follow, and considering the extremely low pay the money is not the motivator. Yes, some individuals break the rules, but not many.

[Gavran]

Could work both ways.

1. The honorable this to do is to let them go. You show honor, heart and general good morals by doing so. It is how older battles used to be. To be able to pick up the wounded and dead from the battlefield at sunset or at an agreed time

2. The flip side, you kill what you can as you know they will come back to have another dig at you... It is about minimizing the ability of an enemy to recoup and come back for another attack

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

It should be noted that there is no proper military in Avatar. They are mercenaries in the employ of a corporation, and have no rules and very little morality, obviously. RDA is designed in every way to show the worst of what corporations taking over will mean.

Being paid to kill is being paid to kill. The military of most countries at least has basic rules they follow, and considering the extremely low pay the money is not the motivator. Yes, some individuals break the rules, but not many.

Money is a huge driving factor...

[zongtseng]

Money is a huge driving factor...

For the RDA and other mercenaries, yes. For real world military, not so much. At least in the US, military pay is extremely low and the benefits are not good. I suppose in many other parts of the world, though, the military is one of the few ways to get a real paying job, so that many be true.

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

The RDA did not want to loose any more people to the Na'vi so I think continuing to attack them as they retreated was there way of driving home the message "do not mess with us"...

[Aihwa]

Could work both ways.

1. The honorable this to do is to let them go. You show honor, heart and general good morals by doing so. It is how older battles used to be. To be able to pick up the wounded and dead from the battlefield at sunset or at an agreed time

2. The flip side, you kill what you can as you know they will come back to have another dig at you... It is about minimizing the ability of an enemy to recoup and come back for another attack



I'm sorry to have to say this, but honor is for the dead. In their eyes, every Na'vi they didn't kill, would come back later and kill them.

[Kestor]

What did you expect? It's the RDA we're talking about here.

[Davebwing]

I believe the Colonel told the Scorpians to "Pursue and Destroy!"

[zongtseng]

I believe the Colonel told the Scorpians to "Pursue and Destroy!"

Yes. And then Eywa said the same thing.

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

Yes. And then Eywa said the same thing.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Awesome! :)

[avatarman]

Yes. And then Eywa said the same thing.

We have a win here.

[HufweMakto]

What did you expect? It's the RDA we're talking about here.

If you think that's bad, in the original scriptment they were shooting herds of animals... for fun!

[Spartan117cjl]

It doesn't even Boil down to the RDA being absolute douchebags. That's just good military principal, war is not for half-measures and the first and foremost objective of war is destruction of the enemy's capability to resist. Clausewitz would be proud here.

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

If you think that's bad, in the original scriptment they were shooting herds of animals... for fun!

sad...:ncry:

[brianct]

Anyone else noticed in the movies the RDA starts shooting the Na'Vi on ground as they are retreating? After they fall back, the helicopters come and shoot rockets. They were retreating!!!! Wtf!!!!!!

cleaning up operation?

this was a genocide campaign...

[brianct]

If you think that's bad, in the original scriptment they were shooting herds of animals... for fun!

id have kept that in...to show how far humans had fallen visavis the na'vi...

[brianct]

Yes. And then Eywa said the same thing.

really when?

NOTE back at hells base..lots of humans survive.,.not massacredr by Eywa or na'vi..

now if this was the Bible and Yahweh...

[neytirifanboy]

I'm sorry to have to say this, but honor is for the dead. In their eyes, every Na'vi they didn't kill, would come back later and kill them.

Yes, this was ultimately the objective of Quaritch's pre-emptive strike. To destroy the Na'vi massing against them. Arguably, destorying the Na'vi forces was more important than destoying the tree of souls. it was also the justification for deployiong ground troops as only ground troops can finish a search and destroy mission in heavy jungle.

Pursuing and fleeing a retreating enemy is standard practice. Remember what the Americasn did to the Republican guard in the first Gulf War. It was the same concept.

But as someone else said, the RDA ended up on the opposite end of the tactic when Eywa intervened. It is very unlikely that any of the ground troops got out alive.

[HufweMakto]

id have kept that in...to show how far humans had fallen visavis the na'vi...

In a way, there's a good reason why this probably wasn't left in: people would think that was too far and too extreme, or too unrealistic, though it probably pales in comparision to what's really happened in real life in the past and even today...

Sometimes reality can seem unrealistic.

[mepokhan]

The ground troops were supposed to clear the area up to the tree of souls, plus as rightfully pointed out by someone else the scorpions were given a clear command by yours truly, Col Quaritch to 'pursue and destroy at will' and also that Neytriri's ikran seze was ultimately shot down by the amp suit guy, the ground troops were doing their work better than helicopters till the very end, at which point Eywa gave the same command.

[Gavran]

I'm sorry to have to say this, but honor is for the dead. In their eyes, every Na'vi they didn't kill, would come back later and kill them.

Yes hence i said two options. I am not saying honor is good or bad just saying in battle u do one of the two... Back in older times it was honor now days its who ever lives:)

[zongtseng]

really when?

NOTE back at hells base..lots of humans survive.,.not massacredr by Eywa or na'vi..

now if this was the Bible and Yahweh...

Obviously... it's just a bit of humor.

[AC130StandingBy]

Considering the fact that the RDA is terribly outnumbered and that the Na'vi will certainly strike back, their actions are legitimate, even by military standards, although I don't condone such actions. You might suggest that they take large number of prisoners, but the human colony certainly can't handle that. But in the end, it's the Sky people who got defeated.:)

[brianct]

For the RDA and other mercenaries, yes. For real world military, not so much. At least in the US, military pay is extremely low and the benefits are not good. I suppose in many other parts of the world, though, the military is one of the few ways to get a real paying job, so that many be true.

thats why many are enticed into Blackwater! pay as a mercenary is much better:

'According to data provided to the House panel, the average per-day pay to personnel Blackwater hired was $600. According to the schedule of rates, supplies and services attached to the contract, Blackwater charged Regency $1,075 a day for senior managers, $945 a day for middle managers and $815 a day for operators.

[...]

An unmarried sergeant given Iraq pay and relief from U.S. taxes makes about $83 to $85 a day, given time in service. A married sergeant with children makes about double that, $170 a day'
etc

Blackwater Mercs Make More than Petraeus (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blackwater_mercs_make_more_than_petraeus/)

[brianct]

In a way, there's a good reason why this probably wasn't left in: people would think that was too far and too extreme, or too unrealistic, though it probably pales in comparision to what's really happened in real life in the past and even today...

Sometimes reality can seem unrealistic.

i recall people thinking AVATAR would be rubbish....AND no its nort extreme at all...The US shot at weddings in Iraq/afganistan

So no ,youre reason isnt sound...

[Fosus]

NOTE back at hells base..lots of humans survive

Just to be sent back to their dying world.. :nconfused:

[HufweMakto]

i recall people thinking AVATAR would be rubbish....AND no its nort extreme at all...The US shot at weddings in Iraq/afganistan

So no ,youre reason isnt sound...

Basically what I was saying is that people often don't think of things as being realistic because they can perceive certain things as being too extreme or "unrealistic": one good example is the fact that when people say "Good Night and Good Luck", many people complained about the actor playing Senator MacCarthy as "overacting" his part; what people didn't realize was that WAS real footage of Senator MacCarthy and NOT an actor.

The original scriptment kinda painted the RDA and SECFOR as being "monsterous" in their nature, but you have to wonder if the producers or Cameron himself wrote out some of that stuff just to make the movie more excessible to a large audience.

[neytirifanboy]

The original scriptment kinda painted the RDA and SECFOR as being "monsterous" in their nature, but you have to wonder if the producers or Cameron himself wrote out some of that stuff just to make the movie more excessible to a large audience.

Perhaps Cameron realised it wasn't necessary in the end. I think the main object was to of the scenes you mention is to make the viewer favour the Na'vi against the humans.

But perhaps they realised that such scenes were not necessary, because the viewer tends to favour the Na'vi for positive reasons rather than hate the humans for negative reasons.

I actually think that the movie does an impressive job as it is of making us favour the Na'vi without needing to make the humans completely monstrous.

[Neytiri.]

Because there psychotic renegades who's only objective is to kill everything thats in there way and take all valuable resources.

and the fact that the Na'vi where trying to kill them.

Eye for an Eye (makes the whole world blind-Gandhi)

[Noldorin]

This may sound harsh but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to destroy as much enemies as possible in a battle if they didn't surrender. The routed enemies may regroup and attack you at a later time(in navis case, they certainly would because they are willing to defend their homeland to death) and it's sensible to prevent the enemy from attacking you again in future by destroying their army(of course I don't want to see any Na'vi die but this is what I think if I try to see the situation objectively)

[avatarman]

This may sound harsh but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to destroy as much enemies as possible in a battle if they didn't surrender. The routed enemies may regroup and attack you at a later time(in navis case, they certainly would because they are willing to defend their homeland to death) and it's sensible to prevent the enemy from attacking you again in future by destroying their army(of course I don't want to see any Na'vi die but this is what I think if I try to see the situation objectively)

Honor and war code dictates you should not attack a retreating opponent.

[Neytiri.]

This may sound harsh but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to destroy as much enemies as possible in a battle if they didn't surrender. The routed enemies may regroup and attack you at a later time(in navis case, they certainly would because they are willing to defend their homeland to death) and it's sensible to prevent the enemy from attacking you again in future by destroying their army(of course I don't want to see any Na'vi die but this is what I think if I try to see the situation objectively)

well yeah, its gen. warfare, if its got a weapon and has a potential to harm to someone in your squad/battle group you kill it or remove its ability to do harm

but it was kind of ruthless, they were on horse back for christ sake

[neytirifanboy]

Honor and war code dictates you should not attack a retreating opponent.

I'm afraid its a code that is never used in modern, and indeed, ancient warfare. The only code that really counts is to defeat your enemy.

In ancient warfare, cavalry was generally used to chase down fleeing enemy troops.

Even in modern times, the Americans attacked the fleeing Iraqi army and Republican Guard during the first Gulf war, as I mentioned in a previous post.

In principle, any army will pursue and destroy a fleeing army if it is possible, expedient and potlically feasible to do so.

The RDA only did what any other army has always done in the same circumstances.

[Neytiri.]

I'm afraid its a code that is never used in modern, and indeed, ancient warfare. The only code that really counts is to defeat your enemy.

In ancient warfare, cavalry was generally used to chase down felling enemy troops.

Even in modern times, the Americans attacked the fleeing Iraqi army and Republican Guard during the first Gulf war, as I mentioned in a previous post.

In principle, any army will pursue and destroy a fleeing army if it is possible, expedient and potlically feasible to do so.

The RDA only did what any other army has always done in the same circumstances.

Agree'd, its logics, why would you let someone live who has the intent to kill or harm you.

[joeylovesgaia]

Reading about Wounded Knee makes me want to puke... and to think my country, which I've heard lionized so often, was founded on this infamy... Yeah, mercs are even worse, they don't have even a half-assed ideal to fight for. Just murderers for money. But national militaries, esp. expansionist ones, are capable of atrocities too.

[Unitiranyu Tsamsiyu]

According to the colonel,that's called "shock and awe campaign"&"fight terror with terror"

[neytirifanboy]

In a way, there's a good reason why this probably wasn't left in: people would think that was too far and too extreme, or too unrealistic, though it probably pales in comparision to what's really happened in real life in the past and even today...

Sometimes reality can seem unrealistic.

I have a wonderful example in history to support your point, HufeMakto, but from the opposite side.

There is one example I history where a victorious army failed to pursue and destroy a defeated and fleeing army, resulting in the ultimate defeat of the victorious army.

That army was the German army in WW2. When the British army was trapped in Dunkirk, Hitler ordered the panzer regiments to stop their offensive for a couple od days, thus allowing tens of thousands of allied troops to escape and fight another day, and despite the fact that Hitler's generals wanted to continue the offensive.

It appears ironic that one of the greatest example of failing to destroy a defeated enemy was perpetrated by the ruthless Nazis.

Imagine you were asked a theoretical question without knowledge of the historical event. "Would the Nazis puruse and destroy the allied army if it was trapped in a port and ahd the opportunity to do so?"

Most reasonable people using logic would assume that the Nazis wouldn't hesitate. So the fact that they did hesitate just shows that the less realistic scenario actually happened in this case.

[MGCJerry]

Quaritch did say; "Scorpions, persue and destroy." This implies to me that he wants them pursued and destroyed otherwise I think the soldiers.. err mercenaries wouldn't have attacked the retreating Na'vi.

[Shatnerpossum]

Note that Eywa was killing retreating RDA. This sword appears to have two edges.

[Imperius Dictatio]

It's always been military policy for armies to harry at a retreating army in an attempt to destroy them.

This is as true today was it was thousands of years ago when wars were fought with melee weapons. If an army broke and began to retreat horsemen were sent in to harry at the retreating forces. Armies were also sent to pursue and destroy an enemy army. If they didnt surrender enemy soldiers were fair game.

[joeylovesgaia]

Note that Eywa was killing retreating RDA. This sword appears to have two edges.

Eywa was fighting a war of defense. The RDA presence had to be destroyed or they would just keep digging giant holes, cutting down trees of voices, and killing animals and People. From the perspective of a global superorganism, the Sky People are like nasty bacteria--Eywa knew She was fighting for Her life.

[Grifff]

RDA are scumbags, what more could you expect.

ok i think thats more than i bias opinion, the rda are just doing what theyre told (appart from quaritch) , plus if war , what do you expect?

[Zapgun]

I can say the exact same thing about the Na'Vi.

The Na'Vi had to be destroyed, or otherwise rendered incapable of attack or defenseless scientists, miners, and RDA employees would be killed due to the Na'Vi inability to determin who was a threat and who was not. Just look at Neytiri, she was ready to put an arrow in Jakes back the moment she laid eyes on him. Can we expect the Na'Vi to behave any more 'nobly' then us? And if you say yes, then you are an idiot.

And if you are right then the Na'Vi deserve whatever they get.

As for the accusations of genocide, Quaritch did not wage a war of genocide, if he had he would be attacking the Na'Vi directly as opposed to their religious sites. In a war of genocide you kill the enemy entirely, not their ability to fight.

[Tirea Nantang]

They were retreating! They faced no threat! And they had rockets against horses!!!

You don't seem to see the RDA's point of view.

[Grifff]

exactly . most people in this topic are so bias to the navi they cant see both points of view

[Na'viTirea]

RDA are scumbags, what more could you expect.

Seconded.

[Zapgun]

In other words very few people in this thread are able to remain objective and weigh all points and factors. They automatically fall for the 'noble savage' that has been created by James Cameron. In that department I would say that James has masterfully accomplished his objective.

Everyone is ready to call the RDA evil mustache twirlling villains who cackle to themselves when they kick small children over and take their candy only to toss it in the trash because they are on a diet, when they don't stop to consider that the Na'Vi have done the exact same thing to the RDA, only on a smaller scale.

The Na'Vi are not afraid to quite litterally, stab you in the back and doom you to a quick and painful death. They don't care about you, or your intentions, you are the vile them, the skypeople, not Na'Vi, and that is reason enough to end your life. I would say the Na;Vi are racist.

[Colonel Quaritch]

Yay I'm part of a minority!

[Imperius Dictatio]

Wouldnt it be a majority? More humans then Na'vi. (Better for the eventual Zerg Rush that shall blot out the sun.)

[Whooshx2]

Good 'ol guerilla warfare.

[Zapgun]

Wouldnt it be a majority? More humans then Na'vi. (Better for the eventual Zerg Rush that shall blot out the sun.)


Na'Vi:Then we shall die by the thousands in the shade!

[SirGreenDay]

ok i think thats more than i bias opinion, the rda are just doing what theyre told (appart from quaritch) , plus if war , what do you expect?

Umm, it's not war. It's 1 sidecwanting to exploit a resource on an alien world, and doing whatever they need to do to accomplish their goal.

Kind of reminds me of Bush politics.