Medical Progress?

[Theorist]

Ok, So medicine seems like a good thing right? It makes us live longer and it makes use healthier.

But, I'm wondering if we are digging ourselves a hole?

We have medicine, antibodies, which kill bacteria. However, bacteria, like all life, evolve and are becoming resistant to human drugs. Bacteria which used to be harmless because of drug resistance, are becoming harmful and dangerous again.

Viruses, we can't kill them really (cause they aren't truly alive), but we can vaccinate against them. They too, similar to life evolve. Our vaccines do not protect from all harmful strains of a virus, only the main ones. With the main ones dead, the less common strains become the common ones. These then infect us, and often kill us.

The problem with medicine, is that it doesn't kill all types of bacteria/viruses, only the main ones we commonly see to cause disease. However, the less common ones take root with the main ones gone. Eventually, we will run out off new medicines to make, and will be left with a bunch of deadly viruses, which could deal a serious blow to humans.

Ok, now before you say "So, why is medicine bad then? It is slowing a natural process!"

Well, here's the deal. Viruses and Bacteria evolve to be less harmful to their host. That is right, the ones which kill the host eventually become extinct, and the ones which don't kill their host do not become extinct. This is because Bacteria and Viruses, need hosts to be alive, and if they do not kill their host, they can live and reproduce longer in that host. So if we did not use medicines, the viruses and bacteria would evolve to live inside us, without harming us. As that is better for them, as they can leave more offspring with us alive.

This is where medicine is bad. It causes viruses and bacteria to not reach a point where they live harmlessly in us.

Here is an example.

AIDs in humans is devstating, there is no cure. There are some treatments, but no cure. However, AIDs in Felines, which has been found in most lions which were tested, barely harms them. Their AIDs is similar in structure to ours, but it does not kill them, it just reproduces harmlessly, while we try to fight ours, making it become more deadly.

This is why I wonder if medicines (in the respect to antibiotics/vaccines) are truly helpful?

Discuss :)

[Malu tek tek]

well it has helped increase our life spans and made our lives better in general... but we are less hardy and less able to fight sickness by our selves

[sunnyside]

Unless the earth was created biblically a couple thousand years ago, viruses and bacteria have been around for billions of years before the advent of modern medicine, and in that time plenty of diseases remained lethal to or sickening.

So I think it's rather off the mark to believe that diseases would ever all evolve to a point of not harming their hosts. Certainly not in anything resembling a short period of time.

In part because diseases are always changing. So even a benign one could turn sickening or even deadly.

[ViperWingLeader]

Smallpox.

There are no Smallpox Virii in the environment anymore. we eradicated them, destroyed them.

You don;t have to worry about the Plague, Leprosy, Smallpox, Chollera, TB, Diptheria, INFLUENZA ((which killed MILLIONS)), Measels, mumps, Rhubella, Scarlet Fever, Strep,


God I could go on, but this sort of crap that Medicine is bad pisses me off. It's like you read a text book in the 6th grade and it mentioned MERSA and you never bothered to do anymore research.

Virii and bacterium have killed more people throughout time than all the wars mankind has ever fought. You wanna go back to the middle ages where there was no medicine, by all means please do withy all of the anti-vaccination luddites. I plan to live to 100+ years old, you can enjoy your life expectancy of 30.

[ikranflyer]

First of all, I dont think you should assume everyone reading this will think medicine is bad. It is definately NOT bad. Medicine saves lives I fail to see how anyone can think thats bad. Also, when we vaccinate people against something, that does not mean the less common strain will become the common one. That strain is less common for a reason, its harder for that one to infect us. If we didnt vaccinate people, half of us wouldnt be alive. The bacteria and viruses wouldnt just "reproduce harmlessly" like you say it will, it will kill anyone it can. Yes, we would eventually evolve to become immune to it, but the virus is co-evolving along with us. Today, we can know what strain of virus will be the next big one, and we create vaccines for it. If we dont create it in time, we can still create one with more minimal casulties to the people. Lastly, we will never run out of medicines to create, as long as there are able scientists, medicine will continue to advance and save lives.

[Theorist]

Unless the earth was created biblically a couple thousand years ago, viruses and bacteria have been around for billions of years before the advent of modern medicine, and in that time plenty of diseases remained lethal to or sickening.

So I think it's rather off the mark to believe that diseases would ever all evolve to a point of not harming their hosts. Certainly not in anything resembling a short period of time.

In part because diseases are always changing. So even a benign one could turn sickening or even deadly.

Bacteria have been around for a long time, 3.5-3.9 billion years, but viruses are relatively new in the relative time scale of life on earth. And, another thing to note is that most evolution is not gradual, but occurs in spurts of rapid change (rapid relative to life's history), then evolution is not noticeable for a long period of time.

Also, because of how rapidly viruses can reproduce, they can completely evolve into a new species in under 3 months.

As well, it is also true that organisms which live in a host will have an evolutionary trend that allows them to survive in their host w/o killing them. This is obviously not instant, but is the general direction in which parasites evolve.

[Theorist]

to the two posts above, I did not state all medicine and health care was bad. I only stated that we need to be concerned with antibiotics, drugs which kill parasite who use us as a host.

As well, we do not evolve along with viruses and bacteria. They evolve so that they can reproduce more offspring. If that means killing us, then the ones who killed us would be around, but they evolve to not kill us, as that lets them leave more offspring.

Also, some of the disease listed as eradicated are coming back. There has been a Tuberculosis (Which I assume TB is), which is coming back. It originated in Russian prisons, and has spread to the U.S. It's also contaigous. And, sadly we don't have medicine to kill it right now.

Finally, I want to reiterate that I don't think all medicine is bad. I think we need to be careful in where and when we use antibiotics.

[ikranflyer]

Bacteria have been around for a long time, 3.5-3.9 billion years, but viruses are relatively new in the relative time scale of life on earth.
Actually, scientists cant accurately predict how long theyve been or what the origin of viruses was because of the fact that they do not form fossils. Researchers believe though, that viruses have been around just as long or maybe even longer than bacteria. They even believe that viruses played a part in the extinction of dinosaurs and the evolution of humans
ps not trying to start an arguement here :)

[Theorist]

Actually, scientists cant accurately predict how long theyve been or what the origin of viruses was because of the fact that they do not form fossils. Researchers believe though, that viruses have been around just as long or maybe even longer than bacteria. They even believe that viruses played a part in the extinction of dinosaurs and the evolution of humans
ps not trying to start an arguement here :)

could be :)

especially when you consider that 3.5-3.9 billion years is 400million years, and that is longer than humans will be around. (Not trying to start another argument with this either, just basing the span of human existence off of other mammals)

[Grif]

This is one of the greatest moral questions I can think of, and I've thought of it often.

Here is what I'm assuming will eventually happen. We will have a plague, it's going to happen eventually. It will be an extremely swift version of natural selection. It is going to be tough, we will lose people we love.

Ok that really didn't have much to do with the topic other than the fact that eventually something will evolve to the point where we cannot stop it in time. I see both sides of the problem. Everyone deserves to live a healthy, happy life, but the medicine we take does make the pathogens stronger. Everything is just getting scaled up. From bronze to steel.

And there is nothing I can do about it.

[sunnyside]

Two things. First diseases aren't trying to kill people, but the way they spread, such as causing welts that spew puss all over ones body, is not a friendly effect, and will take out some percentage of the population. Same with most disease symptoms. Spreading is more important than effect to host.


However from a more practical and personal standpoint, always take the full compliment of antibiotics if you are prescribed them, and don't use them unneccesarily. Because drug resistant strains are quite a real effect and doing the above is a good way to produce such a resistant strain inside yourself.

However "drug resistant" does not mean you'd be better off if there weren't any drugs in the first place. Just that in an age of modern medice you can find youself with the treatment options of someone from a hundred or more years ago.

Which is NOT good.

[ViperWingLeader]

Ok, now before you say "So, why is medicine bad then? It is slowing a natural process!"
Meaning you believe medicine is bad. Because you are going to counter act this argument, in which you state the belief that medicine ISN'T bad.

This is where medicine is bad. It causes viruses and bacteria to not reach a point where they live harmlessly in us.You again

to the two posts above, I did not state all medicine and health care was bad. I only stated that we need to be concerned with antibiotics, drugs which kill parasite who use us as a host.

Nope you intimated that ALL medicine is bad. Said it twice even.


As well, we do not evolve along with viruses and bacteria. They evolve so that they can reproduce more offspring. If that means killing us, then the ones who killed us would be around, but they evolve to not kill us, as that lets them leave more offspring.depends on the Vectors, and virulence , and casualty rates. Ebola is lethal. It's Still around, as is HANTA, LASA... these are hermoragic fevers. They cook your brain and make your organs bleed. They are fatal. They still exist.


Also, some of the disease listed as eradicated are coming back. There has been a Tuberculosis (Which I assume TB is), which is coming back. It originated in Russian prisons, and has spread to the U.S. It's also contaigous. And, sadly we don't have medicine to kill it right now.TB is a bactirialogical infection of the Lungs. Antibiotics work.


AIDs in humans is devstating, there is no cure. There are some treatments, but no cure. However, AIDs in Felines, which has been found in most lions which were tested, barely harms them. Their AIDs is similar in structure to ours, but it does not kill them, it just reproduces harmlessly, while we try to fight ours, making it become more deadly.

As well, we do not evolve along with viruses and bacteria

You do know how the Human immuno-repsonce to infection works right? Do you know how Humans " Evolve" along with Disease? About 10% of the human population is immune to any one disease at a time. They 10% is not the same people for all diseases, so people have immunity to different things. You know that 83% of the Caucasian population is positive for Plague immunity? Do you know why? Because the the virility and spread of The Black Death meant that only the survivors were left to breed.

This is how Humanity "Evolves" with the disease. only the strong or immune survive. The Weak Die.

Vaccinations came from the fact that people observed that Milk maids tended not to get Small Pox. It was theorized that cowpox infections may in fact ward off small pox, and that's where the research started. We cannot "Evolve" with the diseases because we don;t want people to die. Immuno-conditioning, which is what vaccination is, is not passed from parent to child, though there is some evidence to suggest that mothers can pass gained immunity ((through vaccine or survival)) to unborn children.

So seriously, read up on this stuff. Read up on how the immuno-responce works in Humans. There are 4-5 strains of HIV, and their protein coats vary. There are over 120 strains of the cold virus, and those are the same types of viruses.

[Theorist]

Ok, I did not mean to say that all medicine was bad, but I can see how it is easy to misinterpret something in writing, as written words don't show emotion. As I put, I am speaking in respect to antibiotics and vaccines against deadly bacteria and viruses.

But, Evolution is not that the plague killed the weak, and only the strong survived. That is natural selection. Evolution is that the stronger will leave slightly more offspring, and eventually the weaker will have less offspring, and their DNA will become less and less common in the species, and they will eventually die out.

Also, there is a new TB strain that we cannot kill, and unless it very recently, like in the past few months, was vaccinated against then there is still no medicine against it. Either that, or I've been lied to.


Again, I want to say that I do not think all medicine is bad, and I did not mean for my post to be interpreted that way. I wanted to say that we need to be cautious in the antibiotics and vaccines we use.

If someone breaks their arm, it should be treated, and they should get medical attention, having some holy priest pray that their arm get better, and then leaving them there to suffer is rediculous. I am not implying anything like that at all.

[ViperWingLeader]

First Case of Highly Drug-Resistant TB Found in US - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wirestory?id=9427607&page=1)

We can kill it... it's just a bitch, and people are stupid.

Vaccines aren't the issue. And Since Viruses aren't the issue, and since the only defense against Virii are Vaccines they are not a part of the issue. The issue is Bactirium and antibiotics that are not taken properly.

[rapunzel77]

I think what the real problem is the abuse of antibiotics, etc. My dad is a PA. He gets lots of patients that come into the clinic who have nothing more than a cold or something simliar but they demand that they get an antibiotic or some other kind of medicine for it. As a result, instead of the people allowing their natural immune system to work, they abuse medicines that lose their effectiveness due to the bacteria/viruses evolving into more difficult strains. Modern medicine is good but it can and is being abused. It is also true that TB is on the rise and that is problematic. Now we are seeing more deadly strains of flu as well (ie. H1N1). Use medicine when necessary and use it as prescribed but don't abuse it.

[Theorist]

I agree completely with the posts above. A few month ago, I had something, and i had a fever of 100 for a night, and the next day. My coach told me that if I stayed at a fever that long, to go see a doctor, in case i had swine flu. So, I went to the doctor. She said it was probably just a cold, but she would give me antibiotics in case it was strep. I was a little skeptical, thinking "why should I take these if I have a cold?" But then again there have been two time where the doctors said I didn't have strep, and later found out I did. And, when a doctor gives you medicine to take, you usually take it.

But, she was probably just giving me medicine, thinking it would get me off her back, even though if she hadn't given me anything, I would have just taken my kroger brand ibuprofen to reduce the fever some.

Doctors giving out antibiotics when people don't need them is a very serious problem.

[ikranflyer]

I agree completely with the posts above. A few month ago, I had something, and i had a fever of 100 for a night, and the next day. My coach told me that if I stayed at a fever that long, to go see a doctor, in case i had swine flu. So, I went to the doctor. She said it was probably just a cold, but she would give me antibiotics in case it was strep. I was a little skeptical, thinking "why should I take these if I have a cold?" But then again there have been two time where the doctors said I didn't have strep, and later found out I did. And, when a doctor gives you medicine to take, you usually take it.

But, she was probably just giving me medicine, thinking it would get me off her back, even though if she hadn't given me anything, I would have just taken my kroger brand ibuprofen to reduce the fever some.

Doctors giving out antibiotics when people don't need them is a very serious problem.
Im wondering why she gave you anitbiotics if she didnt test you for strep,
its a very simple test, and takes about 10 minutes for results. Sounds like you dont have the best doctor.
And doctors only do this because most of the population is severely undereducated on when they actually need antibiotics. Theyre not a magic bullet, and more people need to realize that. I guess Im like you theorist, I try not to take antibiotics until its completely necessary, and I havent been sick in a long time. Then again that is probably because I got my h1n1 and general flu vaccine...

[Theorist]

So, agreement that medicine is good, but doctors sometimes abuse antibiotics?

case closed then :)

[ViperWingLeader]

Ok one last thing then Someone said H1N1...is new a deadly? No it's old and not very deadly btw.

H1N1 is THE FIRST strain of Influenza that was typed. It isn't new.