Na'vi Mating, Biologically

[Rikimaru]

Alright, well I'm sure we all know that the part of the Na'vi mating process involves the attaching of queues together to create a spiritual link between two Na'vi. However, it is stated somewhere on the internet (i forget, okay), that there still remains a biological part to this process of mating that James Cameron decided to leave out entirely.
I have speculated as to how this biological process would work. James Cameron said himself that it is entirely possible for Jake, as a male Na'vi to hold the eggs of his and Neytiri's children in his mouth! If it need come to that though, which I highly doubt. Either way, JC is basically stating that anything could be possible.

[Human No More]

In the same way as humans. Tsahaylu isn't a form of reproduction. They probably make tsahaylu while mating (imagine feeling your partner's thoughts and feelings as well!...) but they reproduce similarly to other species.

[Txum_Kali'weya]

they're aliens-anything is possible

[Rikimaru]

Excuse my crude level of thinking, but I had the strangest idea after finding that information about Jake possibly being the "pregnant" one of the couple. What if the Na'vi gender-specific genitalia was switched around so that it was opposite to that of humans? Sorry for the very gross image.

[Human No More]

I doubt it, since females still have breasts (not to mention, technically, wouldn't the gender which carries the baby always be the female?), so if it was the other way around, Jake would still have a 'male' avatar body.

[Rikimaru]

I doubt it, since females still have breasts (not to mention, technically, wouldn't the gender which carries the baby always be the female?), so if it was the other way around, Jake would still have a 'male' avatar body.

Actually the breasts have no reproductive function for the Na'vi body. They're not placental animals.

[Huntress]

I think they produce eggs. Then the male carries it around for several months or so. And when the baby comes out of the egg, the Navi female then takes care of the baby.HAHAHA!

[Human No More]

My second point remains though. There's no specific definition of female AFAIK, but I would guess that the one that carries the foetus would be considered female.

I doubt they lay eggs, that's a reptilian/avian trait that doesn't appear on any other species on Earth. The fact that most Na'vi couples have 2-3 children (it says in the survival guide) also does not imply eggs, which would normally (although not always) produce more in most species.

James Cameron has mentioned Na'vi... reproduction.. in interviews before, which is where I got my original point.

[Uniltìranyu]

Well there was this one interview were JC talked about Jake's blue balls so I'm quite sure he has the male genitalia. :P

[Rikimaru]

Well there was this one interview were JC talked about Jake's blue balls so I'm quite sure he has the male genitalia. :P

lol man. I know I think strangely but I just had to share it. Neytiri could possibly have a .....you know lol. It would ruin the imaginations of many.

[vrrtep]

well i really don't know what to say about this. i'm a little ashamed to say that i have thought about this a good deal. i think that it's probably a system similar to ours but that the equipment probably looks completely different.

[ProfoundHeart]

Actually the breasts have no reproductive function for the Na'vi body. They're not placental animals.

Breasts are there for nourishment. They provide essential lactating nutrients for a given infant. So i agree with the above statement about females. I believe they are the pregnant gender.

Just throwing this out there!

[Uniltìranyu]

lol man. I know I think strangely but I just had to share it. Neytiri could possibly have a .....you know lol. It would ruin the imaginations of many.

The Horror! The Nightmares! :,(

[Tsyal Makto]

Dear god I hope JC says something soon, these threads weird me out. :nlol:

[Prometheus]

Actually the breasts have no reproductive function for the Na'vi body. They're not placental animals.

Actually, they are. All the Na'vi have belly buttons...therefore they are nourished in their mother's wombs by the Na'vi equivalent of a placenta.

And we're yet to see the Na'vi women feeding their youngest children. It's quite possible they breastfeed their children. We don't know yet.

[Rikimaru]

Breasts are there for nourishment. They provide essential lactating nutrients for a given infant. So i agree with the above statement about females. I believe they are the pregnant gender.

Just throwing this out there!

No, JC clearly stated that the Na'vi have no need for nipples, because they are not placental animals. They don't breast feed, basically. Plus it'd be bad for his ratings if he actually made the nipples more apparent.

[Bradley_Jay]

Of course, maybe after sex Jake will grow his own pair of boobies and the plot will thicken.

Hey, anything is possible. Imagine Jake with increased levels of estrogen. LOL.

[ProfoundHeart]

No, JC clearly stated that the Na'vi have no need for nipples, because they are not placental animals. They don't breast feed, basically. Plus it'd be bad for his ratings if he actually made the nipples more apparent.

Well obviously, i was just stating that breast do just that. The Na'vi females don't have breasts for nothing though, nipples or not. Just expressing that i feel given they're biological build, they are the probable carrier of the Na'vi offspring.

[Uniltìranyu Tsamsiyu]

Buy the survival guide if you haven't already. Gives you a better perspective of the mating rituals. Take a look under the Mating section. Na'vi - James Cameron's Avatar Wiki - Sam Worthington, Zoe Saldana (http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Na%27vi)

[Anna]

Jake, as a male Na'vi to hold the eggs of his and Neytiri's children in his mouth!

Hahahaha! Wow I definatly hope most of these theories arent true

[sullyjake1]

In the same way as humans. Tsahaylu isn't a form of reproduction. They probably make tsahaylu while mating (imagine feeling your partner's thoughts and feelings as well!...) but they reproduce similarly to other species.

yeah what he said :P

[Rikimaru]

Well obviously, i was just stating that breast do just that. The Na'vi females don't have breasts for nothing though, nipples or not. Just expressing that i feel given they're biological build, they are the probable carrier of the Na'vi offspring.

I don't doubt that at all. I'm just simply putting a laughable idea out there ;)

[Huntress]

No, JC clearly stated that the Na'vi have no need for nipples, because they are not placental animals. They don't breast feed, basically. Plus it'd be bad for his ratings if he actually made the nipples more apparent.

The Na'vi males (including Jake's avatar) have nipples. :rotfl:

[Apollo]

So they do have reproductive apparatuses, those loin cloths make sense now. I figured they send a bright light through their tsahaylu, a blessing and creation from Ewya, and the female get's pregnant. She would have two souls in her, and the soul would create the body with the mother's help. *Very innovative idea I think... eh?*

[Elequin]

The mating process is all explained in the survival guide.
In the script, Neytiri gets pregnant, so we know the female is the one to get pregnant.
Also JC said that the Na'vi really should not have breasts, but not everyone would be so much in love with Neytiri if that were the case.

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

James Cameron said they reproduce like humans.

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

The whole "Jake carrying the eggs in his mouth" is nonsense Cameron said that to be funny...

[Langundo]

The Na'vi males (including Jake's avatar) have nipples. :rotfl:
as have human males *rolling eyes*
I get the impression some of the guys here are getting freaked out by the thought of males being the pregnant ones. Quite amusing.

[rapunzel77]

According to the Activist's survival guide, the Na'vi reproduce like other terran mammals (ie humans, dogs, cats, etc). So, the females would be the pregnant ones. Also, as someone else pointed out, they do have belly buttons. Belly buttons on us is where the umbilical cord used to be at in our mother's womb. So, its assumed that the Na'vi have similar reproductive apparatuses. James Cameron probably changed some of the features of the Na'vi while he was making the movie. He may have originally intended them to not have breasts, etc but judging from interviews, the cast and crew gave suggestions. So, its possible that he changed it at that point.

[Annata]

The one that produces the ovum is the female. Just look at seahorses, the male carry the children, but they are still male! We have long since advanced from such crude definitions. We look at genetics not appearances to determine gender, if there are even genders!

Ovum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovum)

[Kestor]

According to the Activist's survival guide, the Na'vi reproduce like other terran mammals (ie humans, dogs, cats, etc). So, the females would be the pregnant ones. Also, as someone else pointed out, they do have belly buttons. Belly buttons on us is where the umbilical cord used to be at in our mother's womb. So, its assumed that the Na'vi have similar reproductive apparatuses. James Cameron probably changed some of the features of the Na'vi while he was making the movie. He may have originally intended them to not have breasts, etc but judging from interviews, the cast and crew gave suggestions. So, its possible that he changed it at that point.

This ^

[thelws]

actualyy one interesting question that i had in mind after reading all this...

Based on the wiki, we know that after performing tsahelu they fall asleep. If they are blessed by ehwa they see good things. If they are not, they see bad things and will further prevent the mating.

My question is... how does jake see the dream? when they fall asleep he gets teleported out to his human body. so does he ever get to see the dream? How does neytiri see the dreams of an empty shell?

[Rikimaru]

actualyy one interesting question that i had in mind after reading all this...

Based on the wiki, we know that after performing tsahelu they fall asleep. If they are blessed by ehwa they see good things. If they are not, they see bad things and will further prevent the mating.

My question is... how does jake see the dream? when they fall asleep he gets teleported out to his human body. so does he ever get to see the dream? How does neytiri see the dreams of an empty shell?

That is a very good question. I'd advise starting a whole new topic on this. I'd like to see how it turns out, because now I'm very curious as well.

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

That is a good question...

[cmpxchg8b]

I thought they see good/bad things while they are connected and awake; and they fall asleep afterwards (already knowing what they saw).

[Gogo]

James Cameron said they reproduce like humans.


So if Jake was well endowed he would look like Dr. Manhattan? Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[chawk1993]

I have a feeling that the reproductive system of the Na'vi is similar to that of us humans.

[last shadow]

According to the Activist's survival guide, the Na'vi reproduce like other terran mammals (ie humans, dogs, cats, etc). So, the females would be the pregnant ones. Also, as someone else pointed out, they do have belly buttons. Belly buttons on us is where the umbilical cord used to be at in our mother's womb. So, its assumed that the Na'vi have similar reproductive apparatuses. James Cameron probably changed some of the features of the Na'vi while he was making the movie. He may have originally intended them to not have breasts, etc but judging from interviews, the cast and crew gave suggestions. So, its possible that he changed it at that point.

Heres good insight, besides we know by the script Neytiri is pregnant. JC must have been joking or that is just.... :rotfl:

[Warrior420]

I would be very dissappointed if they didn't have sex while bonding,
double the pleasure, double the fun. I don't know about you guys but I enjoy my sex very thoroughly.

[rapunzel77]

I thought they see good/bad things while they are connected and awake; and they fall asleep afterwards (already knowing what they saw).

Thats what I thought too since they share thoughts/feelings/emotions while they are connected. Neytiri apparently thought that they were mated for life and according to the script, Jake seemed to be ok with it after she tells him.

[rapunzel77]

I would be very dissappointed if they didn't have sex while bonding,
double the pleasure, double the fun. I don't know about you guys but I enjoy my sex very thoroughly.

I'm sure they did too. It seems that the bonding requires both. The tsahelu enhances the intimacy on a spiritual/emotional level while the usual sexual bonding is the intimacy on the physical level.

[Warrior420]

I'm sure they did too. It seems that the bonding requires both. The tsahelu enhances the intimacy on a spiritual/emotional level while the usual sexual bonding is the intimacy on the physical level.

That definetly makes sense, I like your thinking, makes me feel better

[Apollo]

I'm sure they did too. It seems that the bonding requires both. The tsahelu enhances the intimacy on a spiritual/emotional level while the usual sexual bonding is the intimacy on the physical level.
Makes you wonder about it.. would their organs be as sensitive to our own? Is that what the Tsyehlu is meant for while bonding? Is the Tsyehlu meant to be so pleasurable because it's an invasive way of navigating or controlling an animals mind? If sex wasn't a very pleasurable process, we would be in agony after the first 10 minutes; it casts an incredible strain on the body. Without the pleasure, there would be no species.

I also think that human reproduction would not be possible without the development of breasts on females; before we look at personality, we need to judge someone by their physical genes. The Na'vi have the gift of seeing the personality through the Tsyehlu, they don't need to go past the smokes and mirrors that some individuals enjoy putting up to defend themselves. Neytiri and all the females have breasts because it is the most basic necessity for reproduction to happen, if we conclude their insides are similar to humans. Besides, maybe the factor of breast feeding is a missing variable to..

[gilmeiri1]

JC said that's cut sex scense will be in the DVD fun version that's will release in 5-7 months

It will answer your questions...

[Dreaming Of Pandora]

Everything will be on the DVD but don't expect a biology lesson. He only cut out 10 seconds from the scene. Wonder why these threads are so popular sometimes..

[Avonaco76]

Okay I have to chime in on this one. The navi appear to be evolved from Higher Felines which means they are mammals...after all, the females have mammary glands which would lend itself to the notion that they reproduce in much the similar way mammals on Earth would. Male impregnates female, female carries baby, baby is born, female nurses baby, male eats cheetos and watches football (( LOL just kidding on that last part))

[Ringolevio]

Well obviously, i was just stating that breast do just that. The Na'vi females don't have breasts for nothing though, nipples or not. Just expressing that i feel given they're biological build, they are the probable carrier of the Na'vi offspring.
Then why are they there? If the Na'vi aren't a placental species, why do females sport busts? It makes no sense; although, JC may have done it for his audience. Imagine the box office loss had Neytiri lacked a pair of breasts. Or it was his male thinking. Gah! No sense, no sense!

Then again, human females have protruding breasts. All other mammals develop breasts ONCE they become pregnant. Humans keep their mammaries regardless. Could this somehow be linked to Na'vi females? Hmmm.

[tm20]

it's been a while since I read this specific part of the Activist survival guide but I'm pretty sure it said reproduction for the Na'vi is similar to humans. So I guess the males and females have their bits.

[navi31337]

Dont know what to say...

[Pygmy-Na'vi]

I doubt they lay eggs, that's a reptilian/avian trait that doesn't appear on any other species on Earth.

Wrong. There are mammals which lay eggs (echidna for example), and snakes and sharks which give birth to live young.

James Cameron said himself that he only put breasts on Neytiri to get horny teenage guys watch the movie (no quote, but that's how I interpreted it when reading the interview), and that the Na'vi are NOT placental mammals. They can still mate the way most other higher life forms on Earth do, and give birth to live young (like certain species of sharks and snakes), but they do not breastfeed them. That they're descended from felines doesn't mean anything, as the "felines" on Pandora may not be anywhere near similar to the felines on Earth (we know nothing of how the Thanators reproduce).

As for the breasts, they could just as well be some form of craw (like some birds have) where the food is processed for feeding the children, and the navel could just as well be the opening to a pouch of some form. We simply do not know.

[tm20]

Wrong. There are mammals which lay eggs (echidna for example), and snakes and sharks which give birth to live young.

James Cameron said himself that he only put breasts on Neytiri to get horny teenage guys watch the movie (no quote, but that's how I interpreted it when reading the interview), and that the Na'vi are NOT placental mammals. They can still mate the way most other higher life forms on Earth do, and give birth to live young (like certain species of sharks and snakes), but they do not breastfeed them. That they're descended from felines doesn't mean anything, as the "felines" on Pandora may not be anywhere near similar to the felines on Earth (we know nothing of how the Thanators reproduce).

As for the breasts, they could just as well be some form of craw (like some birds have) where the food is processed for feeding the children, and the navel could just as well be the opening to a pouch of some form. We simply do not know.

i thought echidnas were marsupials. Platypuses lay eggs. snakes are reptiles and sharks are more like fishes :rotfl:

[Demiurgos]

I think JC will further (we hope so) expand the "AVATAR" universe and elaborate in more detail about it.
It happened the same to "Star Trek"and "Star Wars" universes, they gradually expanded and became more complex thus many more explanations were possible.
Until then ... we can only guess.

[Pygmy-Na'vi]

i thought echidnas were marsupials. Platypuses lay eggs. snakes are reptiles and sharks are more like fishes :rotfl:

Nope, echidnas are monotremes (egg-laying mammals) as are platypuses. And yes, I should have been more clear there, what I was trying to show is that mammals are not specified by whether they give birth to live young or not and that Na'vi might as well be closely related to fishes, reptiles or amphibians.

['upxare]

it's been a while since I read this specific part of the Activist survival guide but I'm pretty sure it said reproduction for the Na'vi is similar to humans. So I guess the males and females have their bits.

Thats exactly what I believe. A species so similar to humans has also very similar means of reproduction - and mating, which can be seen rudimentarily in the movie (mating scene).
Probably once the DVD gets released we got the certain answer!

[na'ring-tirea]

I REALLY don't think that the Na'Vi have genitalia similar t tat of humans... you see Neytiri's 'bum' a few times, anyway, and it would not appear that she has a... ahem...

As for Jake, that loin cloth looks a bit... tight... so I too doubt he has a... um... yeah. However, why wear one if there's nothing to cover up? Unless it's Na'Vi culture to cover up that area, much like it is with women covering there arms in other cultures and countries on Earth....

Anyway, this is freaking me out. I don't know. LEAVE ME ALONE. *bangs head against wall*

Leave the pure image I have in my head alone, please...

[Tirea Nantang]

Thats exactly what I believe. A species so similar to humans has also very similar means of reproduction - and mating, which can be seen rudimentarily in the movie (mating scene).
Probably once the DVD gets released we got the certain answer!

Actually we are more related to a snail than the Na'vi. Heard it in an interview. Or was it the movie? I don't remember where I heard it but yup, that's how it is.

I also heard in an interview that Jim told the graphics designers of the Na'vi, and I quote, "Blank'able." Which is why they have breasts.

Hm.. But surprisingly enough, they most likely don't use them for breast feeding!

http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2010/03/834.jpg

In the above image of Tsu'tey it clearly shows the Na'vi males do not have nipples, which is probably the same for the girls too. Like someone said earlier, they are not placental animals or whatever. Hey, just a thought, but maybe the Na'vi children are flown in from Eywa on tree sprites from the Tree of Souls lol. Like a Pandoran stork XD

So that's why they have boobs, so they can be "blank'able."

But I'm still curious as to how they reproduce..

['upxare]

I REALLY don't think that the Na'Vi have genitalia similar t tat of humans... you see Neytiri's 'bum' a few times, anyway, and it would not appear that she has a... ahem...

As for Jake, that loin cloth looks a bit... tight... so I too doubt he has a... um... yeah. However, why wear one if there's nothing to cover up? Unless it's Na'Vi culture to cover up that area, much like it is with women covering there arms in other cultures and countries on Earth....

Anyway, this is freaking me out. I don't know. LEAVE ME ALONE. *bangs head against wall*

Leave the pure image I have in my head alone, please...

Guys, just use your logic:

Imagine a chimp, a human and a pig.

A chimp is 98% genetical identical to a human, a pig 92%.

Does a pig look like a human, not that much. However, it obviously both share alot of features. Both are mammals.
Take a look at a na'vi. I'd say they look way more human than even a chimp does. They have a bellybutton, their women have thick breasts. Nature NEVER creates anything for nothing. No, everything has a special function. The na'vis are mammals as we humans are, the unsharp picture of Tsu'tey doesn't change the rule of nature and common logic.
And again, the na'vi are indeed TOO human to be really an extraterrestrial species. I bet the real aliens look way different - because they ARE.

[Devourment]

you see Neytiri's 'bum' a few times, anyway, and it would not appear that she has a... ahem...

Pardon me for saying so, but I hope you know female parts aren't exactly prominent enough to be viewed through a loin cloth(she has more than that sash for covering).


As for Jake, that loin cloth looks a bit... tight... so I too doubt he has a... um... yeah. However, why wear one if there's nothing to cover up? Unless it's Na'Vi culture to cover up that area, much like it is with women covering there arms in other cultures and countries on Earth.....

James Cameron has addressed this and he said he wanted to keep things under an R rating so he left the "bulge" out of his movie.

['upxare]

Pardon me for saying so, but I hope you know female parts aren't exactly prominent enough to be viewed through a loin cloth(she has more than that sash for covering).



James Cameron has addressed this and he said he wanted to keep things under an R rating so he left the "bulge" out of his movie.


exactly. And we 'll likely know the ultimative answer once watched the soon to be released DVD (if it shoes the movie at its full lenght)

[ney.ite]

Actually, they are. All the Na'vi have belly buttons...therefore they are nourished in their mother's wombs by the Na'vi equivalent of a placenta.

And we're yet to see the Na'vi women feeding their youngest children. It's quite possible they breastfeed their children. We don't know yet.
actually JC said somewhere (can't remember where I saw it) that the bellybuttons and the breasts are there for show. They actually have no anatomical value on the Na'vi body, the same as the v-shaped muscle that's in the neck. These parts on their body are there mainly for people to actually relate to this human race. JC also said that the Na'vi actually aren't placental animals, i.e. no use for the bellybutton.

he has not said HOW they reproduce yet, though. hopefully it will be out soon!

[tm20]

Actually we are more related to a snail than the Na'vi. Heard it in an interview. Or was it the movie? I don't remember where I heard it but yup, that's how it is.


Thankyou for bringing up this interesting fact.

That actually isn't suprising to me since snails and us are from the same planet so we evolved from a common ancestor many millions of years ago. Where as the Na'vi are from a different planet. What if the Na'vi DNA structure is completely different to anything on earth? (not a double helix). What if they are prokaryotic? What if they genetic material is stored differently? O_O This is why I really wish there was a book or some official piece of writing that answered these questions. James Cameron wrote an essay on how the ISV Venture Star's propulsion system works so why not an essay on Na'vi genetics? I really want to see a cell from a Pandoran organism as well!!!

['upxare]

Here everyone can see, the na'vis DO have nipples - and a belly button. They're placental mammals as we humans are. Any further question? ;)

(click on the picture)

[madman]

Thankyou for bringing up this interesting fact.

That actually isn't suprising to me since snails and us are from the same planet so we evolved from a common ancestor many millions of years ago. Where as the Na'vi are from a different planet. What if the Na'vi DNA structure is completely different to anything on earth? (not a double helix). What if they are prokaryotic? What if they genetic material is stored differently? O_O This is why I really wish there was a book or some official piece of writing that answered these questions. James Cameron wrote an essay on how the ISV Venture Star's propulsion system works so why not an essay on Na'vi genetics? I really want to see a cell from a Pandoran organism as well!!!

well the RDA didn't have any trouble with the Na'vi DNA

['upxare]

well the RDA didn't have any trouble with the Na'vi DNA

If they would be so dofferent, they simply wouldn't look like humanoids, instead they would be a cloud of protoplasma or whatever... something very alien anyway.

[tm20]

well the RDA didn't have any trouble with the Na'vi DNA

maybe they only have a single helix? so just split human dna, take one strand and combine it with the na'vi strand and presto?

[SnowRider]

I remember reading somewhere (either on the Avatar Wikia site or something) that the Na'vi may look "human" in their external features, but internally, their anatomy, organs, etc. are different from us.

Basically, they look "human" on the outside because of convergent evolution.

['upxare]

I remember reading somewhere (either on the Avatar Wikia site or something) that the Na'vi may look "human" in their external features, but internally, their anatomy, organs, etc. are different from us.

Basically, they look "human" on the outside because of convergent evolution.

Probably for a canon the laws of nature can be bended like this but for a more scientifical approach that sounds just unlogical.
If a species is genetically so different to a human or any other earth mammal, it won't only be 'internally' different but also LOOK different. If your neighbour build his house on a totally different (shaped) foundation, the whole building will look
different. Yet, many here obviously still believe that the foundation can be completely different but the house looks same. Thats simply against any logic. The na'vis are humanoids with almost everything similar, if not exactly shaped like a humans, including most of their habits! for those who don't believe it or can't remember, kindly watch the movie again. There are so many hints! It means, the house of our neighbours has pretty much the same look, windows and doors even at similar places, so its foundation can't be of an airport terminal or office tower (anyway, something entirely different!).

[tm20]

actually he is very right about the convergant evolution stuff. for example, take a shark and a dolphin. One is a fish and the other is a mammal BUT since they live in the water they have had similar environmental pressures so over time they would have evolved into similar creatures. They both have fins and tails and a streamline body. However on the inside the dolphin has lunds whereas the shark has gills. It's very interesting, you should read about it.

As for the humans and the Na'vi, well earth and Pandora are similar but not the same. Pandora has lower gravity so that explains the gigantism of everything. Air is more dense, but i dont know what this has led to in terms of evolution. As for the limbs, they most likely evolved from a primeape like the prolemurs just like we evolved from a chimpanzee, orangutan or something similar.

[SnowRider]

My guess would be that the internal anatomy of the Na'vi might be "different" from us, but probably not all that different.

E.g., since they have mouths with which they eat food, they must have a digestive system of some sort, which means they must have a "stomach" of some kind (or at least the functional equivalent of a stomach) in order to digest their food.

Since they breathe air, they must have "lungs" of some kind, or some way to extract oxygen from the air on Pandora, assuming they breathe oxygen like we do, and that would mean a circulatory system approximately similar to our own.

Basically, their internal organs and the arrangement of said organs may be "different" from us, but probably not all that different.

All of which means that their reproduction and the anatomy of same must be generally similar to our own.

The only real question would be if they deliver their babies by way of live birth or some other method.

['upxare]

They have a mouth and lips like us, a tongue like us, teeth like us, breasts with nipples like us, bodyshape like us, etc etc. Since they cover their lower abdomen, we gotta conclude theiy sexual organs lie underneath - exactly where ours are. Bear in mind, these are pure fictional creaturs who have to look (and mostly act) like humans to let us identify with them. As can be read on another thread, scientists assume the na'vi, as we see them in the movie, are genetical more than 98% identical to us. If we have to deal with a real extraterrestrial species, we might look at 0 % genetical compatibility, means these organism are simply beyond our imagination, coz our planet simply couldn't produce them.

[White4]

I'm sure they did too. It seems that the bonding requires both. The tsahelu enhances the intimacy on a spiritual/emotional level while the usual sexual bonding is the intimacy on the physical level.

sorry if someone said this already, but it was also said the the bond didn't always lead to a sexual act, mates just did it, it doesn't /Have/ to be part of the actual sex, there two completely different things

[applejuice]

Given that sex for the Na'vi is not equals to reproduction, we can assume that, during their evolution they never experienced any danger close to extinction. (Unlike humans, in which the sex is almost equals to reproduction because our species was in the edge of extinction during evolution, so, as a safety mechanism our brain hardwired the act of reproduction with a loooooooooot of pleasure.) Concerning belly buttons, while on Earth, all placental animals are forced to have one because that's how we breathe and feed when inside the womb and because we live on the same planet (and that planet was one continent during a lot of time): for the Na'vi, the evolution might have worked a bit different so, that they are fed by some sort of umbilical cord but they do not need the protection of the placenta from the mother's immune system, maybe it acts like some feeding port during early stages of development. In the script, it's written that Neytiri is OBVIOUSLY PREGNANT so, we need to take a different approach to what we apply of our knowledge about humans when we try to extrapolate that to the Na'vi. Earth not equals to Pandora, so we cannot assume that evolutive paths of the creatures living in Pandora are similar to ours. (At least, until Cameron lights some of this matter...)

['upxare]

@applejuice,

your comment comes with some contradictions in terms of stated facts that the na'vi get pregnant (as you mentioned, Neytiri is), that they do have an umbilical cord (like humans have) and regarding mating, none one can tell that Neytiri didn't have pleasure when mating with Jake. At least in the movie she behaved like she had very much pleasure at that moment...
In every term, there are overwhelming signs displayed in the movie, showing us the similarity of both species. Its actually unlogical to assume a species born underneath another star is so similar to us, unless someone else has made it happen with intention. There are some clips and movies around, designed by exobiologists and physicists, showing how life on other earth-like planets would
likely appear like - all what can be seen there looks extremely different to what we define as a humanoid species. The cosmic variation of life is vast, depended on extremely many factors and beyond our imagination.

[applejuice]

@applejuice,

your comment comes with some contradictions in terms of stated facts that the na'vi get pregnant (as you mentioned, Neytiri is), that they do have an umbilical cord (like humans have) and regarding mating, none one can tell that Neytiri didn't have pleasure when mating with Jake. At least in the movie she behaved like she had very much pleasure at that moment...
In every term, there are overwhelming signs displayed in the movie, showing us the similarity of both species. Its actually unlogical to assume a species born underneath another star is so similar to us, unless someone else has made it happen with intention. There are some clips and movies around, designed by exobiologists and physicists, showing how life on other earth-like planets would
likely appear like - all what can be seen there looks extremely different to what we define as a humanoid species. The cosmic variation of life is vast, depended on extremely many factors and beyond our imagination.
I didn't state that she didn't have any pleasure, I stated that for them, unlike humans, bonding between male and female does not translate into reproduction. As far as we know, they can bond and feel a lot of pleasure and they can mate and reproduce but both are separated functions. In humans, when you mate a female, it's a reproduction act (unless some precautionary measure is taken). As for the "umbilical cord" I was just speculating about its function (if it has one)...

['upxare]

I didn't state that she didn't have any pleasure, I stated that for them, unlike humans, bonding between male and female does not translate into reproduction. As far as we know, they can bond and feel a lot of pleasure and they can mate and reproduce but both are separated functions. In humans, when you mate a female, it's a reproduction act (unless some precautionary measure is taken). As for the "umbilical cord" I was just speculating about its function (if it has one)...

Never disagreed to this very point. In fact the na'vi have two ways to mate, one physically one (the one we humans got as well) and the spiritual/mental one, done by a direct neurological bond. Melting thoughts directly between each other and pushs down the walls of everyone's last intimacy. Something only preserved for lifeforms capable to handle it, physically and emotionally. We humans obviously cant. ;)
However, in terms of reproduction, their way of 'mating' comes pretty close to ours...
The umbilical cord provides the embryo with the necessary nuitrition during pregnancy, as it happens for all mammals, including the na'vi.

[applejuice]

Never disagreed to this very point. In fact the na'vi have two ways to mate, one physically one (the one we humans got as well) and the spiritual/mental one, done by a direct neurological bond. Melting thoughts directly between each other and pushs down the walls of everyone's last intimacy. Something only preserved for lifeforms capable to handle it, physically and emotionally. We humans obviously cant. ;)
However, in terms of reproduction, their way of 'mating' comes pretty close to ours...
The umbilical cord provides the embryo with the necessary nuitrition during pregnancy, as it happens for all mammals, including the na'vi.
Hehe, this whole debate came to life after Cameron said that they are not placental mammals... though I think he might need to review some of his statements to make his world more accurate accurate... Ahhh... pity humans have hardwired pleasure with reproduction, if those could be splitted in two different functions I think that a lot of problems would stop to be.

['upxare]

Hehe, this whole debate came to life after Cameron said that they are not placental mammals... though I think he might need to review some of his statements to make his world more accurate accurate... Ahhh... pity humans have hardwired pleasure with reproduction, if those could be splitted in two different functions I think that a lot of problems would stop to be.

Where it can be seen that JC said they re not mammals? Even if he did, he wasn't serious, coz that statemant would simply contradict with the creatures seen in the theaters.

[applejuice]

Where it can be seen that JC said they re not mammals? Even if he did, he wasn't serious, coz that statemant would simply contradict with the creatures seen in the theaters.
The references are all over internet, however here's one>
Na'vi sex scene found. How they do it: For Your Consideration - scanners (http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2010/01/navi_sex_scene_found_how_they.html)



Writer-director James Cameron acknowledged in his Playboy interview (http://www.playboy.com/articles/james-cameron-interview/index.html?page=1) that he insisted his Pandora-dwelling Na'vi females "have tits," even though "that makes no sense because her race, the Na'vi, aren't placental mammals." In the same interview he said, "I designed her costumes based on a taparrabo, a loincloth thing worn by Mayan Indians."

['upxare]

The references are all over internet, however here's one>
Na'vi sex scene found. How they do it: For Your Consideration - scanners (http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2010/01/navi_sex_scene_found_how_they.html)

Ok that quote I was already reading somewhere here on the forum. Well, as said before, JC got to withdraw that comment, if he doesn't want them to contradict his actual masterpiece (movie).

[applejuice]

Ok that quote I was already reading somewhere here on the forum. Well, as said before, JC got to withdraw that comment, if he doesn't want them to contradict his actual masterpiece (movie).
I dunno, probably there are a lot of plausible explanations to make sense, like a recessive characteristic... but Avatar is work-in-progress so things can change on the fly.

['upxare]

I dunno, probably there are a lot of plausible explanations to make sense, like a recessive characteristic... but Avatar is work-in-progress so things can change on the fly.

So I hope the result won't be inconsistent coz that would certainly kill the avatar universe.

[applejuice]

So I hope the result won't be inconsistent coz that would certainly kill the avatar universe.

True, true. There is a looooooooooooooot of time to sort this things out for Cameron, I expect Avatar 2 not before 2015... (Cameron is in a very difficult situation, he has to deliver an super high quality production for us!!!)

['upxare]

True, true. There is a looooooooooooooot of time to sort this things out for Cameron, I expect Avatar 2 not before 2015... (Cameron is in a very difficult situation, he has to deliver an super high quality production for us!!!)

I know JC will consider his steps carefully. As mentioned in another thread, Avatatar II is slated for a year 2014 release.

[Eddie D]

they're aliens-anything is possible lol:nlol:

[Urban_Durga]

Regarding the original poster's question about reproductively functional purposes for the 'queue'...

I suppose it's possible that by hooking up to another life form's permanent record, as it were, one could determine if the potential mate would be a good match biologically. Factors such as dominant/recessive traits, history of illness or congenital issues, degree of relation (to prevent incestually influenced developmental defects; most species have some sort of mechanism to help safeguard against this), assessing physical strength/ability to provide for and protect offspring, etc.

It is fiction, after all, so who knows...but even human feelings of romantic love ultimately serve a necessary biological function for the propagation of our species.

[tawtute_tsamsiyu]

I doubt it, since females still have breasts (not to mention, technically, wouldn't the gender which carries the baby always be the female?), so if it was the other way around, Jake would still have a 'male' avatar body.

Male seahorses get pregnant! :)

[Ney´tiri]

I´ve done some research, this is what I found about Mating;

The Na'vi are monogamous creatures who mate for life. The mechanics of reproduction are similar to that of humans and other Terran mammals. However, their unique physiology provides the Na'vi with a level of intimacy unknown on Earth. Cultural anthropologists believe that when an appropriate mate has been selected (which can take many years), the male and female Na'vi will connect queues (called Tsaheylu) to create an emotional bond that lasts a lifetime. The intertwining of queues is both highly erotic and profoundly spiritual, but does not in itself lead to reproduction.
Traditionally, once a Na'vi male has passed the tests on the path to manhood and has been accepted into the clan as an adult, he is not only allowed to make his bow from the wood of the Hometree, but he is also allowed to choose his woman. After the woman has been chosen, the new couple are mated before Eywa.
Jake Sully chooses Neytiri to become his mate, and she accepts and mates with him under the Tree of Voices following his acceptance into the Omaticaya clan as 'One of the People'.
Once Tsaheylu is made between the couple, the ultimate in intimacy, pleasure that is unfathomable to humans, causes the somewhat unwilling sharing of the couple's good memories, and is a sign of Eywa's acceptance. If a couple can be foreseen to not have a pleasant or happy future, Eywa has been known to reverse the feeling produced by making Tsaheylu, a sign to the couple that mating would only, in simple words, ruin their lives together. Therefore, this process prevents the what would become an unsuccessful lifelong mating. After the resulting embracing and kissing, the couple is sent to sleep by Eywa, and the two dream of hints of what their future will be together. The couple will experience the pleasure of Tsaheylu from the moment of connection until they awaken and have completed mating. When they disconnect and return to the clan, they are mated for life

[edplane]

I would hope they actually reproduce like mammals. Otherwise, whats the point of designing the characters to look like us? Make us bond with them, sure, but gotta get the technical aspects down. This goes there, this goes there, we are mated before Eywa, now I am having a baby, and we will live a happy life. I envy that process... ;)

[electrosphere11]

At this point, i'm quite positive that the Na'vi share a similar reproductive system to humans, perhaps with slight variations.

[squires]

i for 1 would certainly hope that Ney'tiri has the neccessary biological equipment to be able to be a mother. It would be a shame if that aspect was denied her. I bet she would make a fabulous mother with her deep caring attitude too.

[tm20]

na'vi reproduction is similar to humans. so it can be said that this goes into that and you know the rest :rotfl: just read the activist's survival guide :nsmile:

[Nìmwey]

Okay, just a thing - can't people just stop trying to fit them into any of the taxonomic groups of creatures here on Earth? They are aliens. They are neither mammal, bird, reptile, fish or anything else, they are aliens. Even if they are warm-blooded vertebrates who have placentas, umbilical cords, mammary glands and hair, that doesn't make them mammals, since mammals are a group of animals on Earth.

SimKoning on YouTube is probably better at explaining this than I am. (Another video of his, "Alien boobs" - yes, that's the name - was much better in explaining the thing with trying to categorize aliens as terran lifeforms, but I can't seem to find it.)
YouTube - Science of Avatar: Na'vi Evolution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tbTWxguAZ8)

For example, you can't call an alien a "feline", even if it looks just like a cat. If the Na'vi was a terran species, then you could speculate whether they evolved from felines, because of several cat-like traits, but they are not terran, they are not related to us or our cats in any way, so...
And anyway, because the Prolemuris are said to be to the Na'vi what lemurs are to us, that means the Na'vi must have evolved from the "Pandoran equivalent of primates".

As for the nipples - they are not there without reason. And whether they have a placenta or not, or if they are "marsupials", or if they lay eggs, that doesn't matter to whether they can have functional breasts or not.
So to say "they are not placental mammals" does not rule out the fact that they can have mammary glands.

Jake obviously has nipples: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101007164213/jamescameronsavatar/images/c/c0/Avatarbr141620100513123.jpg
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101008005938/jamescameronsavatar/images/b/b7/Jake_Sully_12_HD.png
We don't see any on the females, but that's not very strange at all, since it's not really accepted to show female nipples in movies, Neytiri and the others just happen to be able to cover them at all times.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100615121609/jamescameronsavatar/images/b/bb/PDVD_3957.JPG
(As for the last picture, the guy to the left, in the foreground, doesn't seem to have any... but then there is a rather big guy to the right who seems to have them. This drives me nuts.)

I don't know what's up with Tsu'tey, maybe he got his nipples removed or something :embarrassed: (I can't find any picture of Tsu'tey where you see any nipples), but here we have a random Na'vi guy who obviously has nipples, so it's not just the Avatars: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091216161533/jamescameronsavatar/images/5/52/Snapshot20091216171242.jpg

And as for "who's the pregnant one", I can't resist posting this (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/016/a/f/Avatar__Mild_spoilers_by_B1nd1.jpg)...:nwink:

[Nat'Ahn Yor]

I think Cameron designed them so close to humans just for the sake of the audience being able to understand them better. The odds of a sentient life form advancing to a physiological state that parallels our own mammalian physiology as well as our reproductive and respiration systems is really not practical, considering that we developed on different sides of a galaxy. Cameron explains in one of his interviews that he was trying to aim for a sense of similarity to lower the audience's suspense of disbelief, and it was really successful, to the point where there are groups of people that felt depressed because the na'vi aren't real.

[chawk1993]

If you really think about, the Na'vi are like humans only taller, blue and various other things that I can't remember right now. Na'vi are mammals like humans and most animals. Even if we didn't see Neytiri pregnant in this one doesn't mean that Na'vi lay eggs. It was mentioned in the script that Neytiri was 'obviously pregnant' stating to many that Na'vi are in fact mammals.

[Nìmwey]

It is not really that far-fetched that they would have the same kind of reproduction as us - it's called convergent evolution. ;)
Things like crying (with tears), laughing, and the sound of their voices being just the same as us... that is more unlikely.

[Orcakat]

If the Na'vi aren't placental mammals, why do they have bellybuttons? All placental mammals have a bellybutton (since the bellybutton is a scar of the umbilical cord that attached the animal/human to the placenta), so I find it rather weird if the Na'vi laid eggs, why would they have bellybuttons that are clearly visible?

Also, think about the scene where Jake's avatar is forming-- isn't that amnio tank supposed to mimic a mammal's womb?

Then again, this is a sci-fi movie; which means all logic goes *POOF!*,byebye. xD

[Hardcorp]

Well, when they say Na'vi are not "placental mammals", it just means they do not belong to Eutheria infraclass and, maybe, do not breastfeed their babies. This doen't mean they don't have some placenta-like structure. Some reptiles, sharks and even arthropods have it. So do Na'vi and other Pandorian animals.

[elkociak]

We don't see any on the females, but that's not very strange at all, since it's not really accepted to show female nipples in movies, Neytiri and the others just happen to be able to cover them at all times.

Actually we can see female Na'vi nipples in Avatar:

Click to watch Neytiri's nipples (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiBCYhS8byg&fmt=22)

[angelpunch00]

whenever my friend dad watch dis movie he say BLUE BOOBS, so now i'm sayin BLUE BALLS

[Sanjwale]

whenever my friend dad watch dis movie he say BLUE BOOBS, so now i'm sayin BLUE BALLS

whahahaha just made my day :ntongue:

[seykxel txe´lan]

whenever my friend dad watch dis movie he say BLUE BOOBS, so now i'm sayin BLUE BALLS

WTH where did that come from:nsmile:

[MarkD]

Now what would happen if a na'vi tried Viagra or a similar pill? I also wonder if Na'vi even have stuff like that?

[BigBlueJake]

Okay, just a thing - can't people just stop trying to fit them into any of the taxonomic groups of creatures here on Earth? They are aliens. They are neither mammal, bird, reptile, fish or anything else, they are aliens. Even if they are warm-blooded vertebrates who have placentas, umbilical cords, mammary glands and hair, that doesn't make them mammals, since mammals are a group of animals on Earth.

SimKoning on YouTube is probably better at explaining this than I am. (Another video of his, "Alien boobs" - yes, that's the name - was much better in explaining the thing with trying to categorize aliens as terran lifeforms, but I can't seem to find it.)
YouTube - Science of Avatar: Na'vi Evolution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tbTWxguAZ8)

For example, you can't call an alien a "feline", even if it looks just like a cat. If the Na'vi was a terran species, then you could speculate whether they evolved from felines, because of several cat-like traits, but they are not terran, they are not related to us or our cats in any way, so...
And anyway, because the Prolemuris are said to be to the Na'vi what lemurs are to us, that means the Na'vi must have evolved from the "Pandoran equivalent of primates".

As for the nipples - they are not there without reason. And whether they have a placenta or not, or if they are "marsupials", or if they lay eggs, that doesn't matter to whether they can have functional breasts or not.
So to say "they are not placental mammals" does not rule out the fact that they can have mammary glands.

From BBJ- Totally agree with the above statements.

Jake obviously has nipples: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101007164213/jamescameronsavatar/images/c/c0/Avatarbr141620100513123.jpg
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101008005938/jamescameronsavatar/images/b/b7/Jake_Sully_12_HD.png
We don't see any on the females, but that's not very strange at all, since it's not really accepted to show female nipples in movies, Neytiri and the others just happen to be able to cover them at all times.

From BBJ- Not acceptable to show female nipples in American PG-13 movies...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100615121609/jamescameronsavatar/images/b/bb/PDVD_3957.JPG
(As for the last picture, the guy to the left, in the foreground, doesn't seem to have any... but then there is a rather big guy to the right who seems to have them. This drives me nuts.)

From BBJ - The guy in the foreground does have them. The male Na'vis' nipples are much higher up on their pectorals than human's nipples. (That bugs me, but goes with the Na'vi's vertically stretched dimensions.)

I don't know what's up with Tsu'tey, maybe he got his nipples removed or something :embarrassed: (I can't find any picture of Tsu'tey where you see any nipples)

From BBJ - Tsu'tey has them, but they aren't in the the general area they would be on a human or an Avatar. They are up higher.

, but here we have a random Na'vi guy who obviously has nipples, so it's not just the Avatars: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091216161533/jamescameronsavatar/images/5/52/Snapshot20091216171242.jpg

And as for "who's the pregnant one", I can't resist posting this (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/016/a/f/Avatar__Mild_spoilers_by_B1nd1.jpg)...:nwink:

From BBJ- I ain't touchin' this one! Deviant Art has a couple different pics - DO NOT WANT!

OK-my two cents on how the Na'vi "aren't placental mammals" yet have breasts and navels. Hardcorp kinda says the same thing, but doesn't go into details.
Animals which hatch from eggs have a finite nutrient supply (yolk sac and amnion) that also attaches to the mid-abdomen via something that looks like an umbilical cord. These embryos do sometimes draw the entire yolk sac part into the body, but those that don't also have a trace of a scar that would be a navel if it were more prominent.
The uterus of chickens and animals that lay eggs typically puts the shell on the outside (+/- calcification) and serves as a holding chamber until a good nest can be found/made. Live-bearing snakes and sharks simply hold their eggs inside the uterus until they hatch. The next step from there to improve the nutrient supply to the embryo is to go to a placental system or some kind of direct attachment. The placenta acts as a filter and immune system barrier.
As for pregnant male seahorses - it is not the same process as mammalian pregnancy. The female seahorse lays her eggs in the males pouch, where he hold them until they hatch.
For the Na'vi, their immune system almost certainly works differently than a human's, and there is probably no need for the placental structure. If they are live-bearing egg-layers, it would be because it is safer to carry the egg with them than to leave it in a nest.
Breast development and lactation is connected to hormones. Obviously it works better associated with a real pregnancy, but it is possible to induce milk production in a female animal with mammary glands by hormone treatment alone. Something similar would work for the Na'vi. Whether pseudo-placental or live-bearing egg-layer, the hormone release from ovulation, substances released by the embryo and even some stimulus to the brain sent through tsaheylu could all act together to induce lactation.

The visual aethetics is to make the Na'vi look attractive to the movie viewer, but a bit of scientific thought can come up with a plausible reason behind it. That is the magic of really effective science fiction worldbuilding.

[Sanjwale]

Now what would happen if a na'vi tried Viagra or a similar pill? I also wonder if Na'vi even have stuff like that?

*don't say what I was thinking about the first one xD*

second one, I don't think that is a problem. i'm pretty sure when you make tsaheylu you "forget" everything around you and "it" will work ^^

[exostrike]

one possible explaination for why female Na'vi have breasts that doesn't involve breast feeding, is that they are fat sacks where they build up energy reserves for during the pregnancy. Women build up fat reserves around thier stomach during pregnancy but due to na'vi biology (much thinner waists) this store is mored up onto the chest. Note however that this would mean that Na'vi breasts expand during pregnancy.

Also considering that the Na'vi queue is tentacle-like in nature why shouldn't the reproductive organs also be tentacle-like (realises that he's turned Avatar into hentai) sorry, had to be said.

[Sanjwale]

it depends. if it is the same as on earth it is impossible to transfer sperm trough something that can't transfer it. (hard to say, sorry) but when you think that they are making someone else pregnant without the "earth way" ye then it could be possible.

[MarkD]

Would a Na'vi and human ever mate? Some fanfics I read have this in a few of them. Male human and Female Na'vi.

[exostrike]

Would a Na'vi and human ever mate? Some fanfics I read have this in a few of them. Male human and Female Na'vi.

Depending on Na'vi biology (what thier 'utensils' look like) they could probadly go through the act. But producing a child, impossible, Na'vi DNA structure is completely different (its not even called DNA) and therefore incompatible. Personally I have severe doubts that even an Avatar could produce a viable Na'vi child (as in one that won't have either physical or genetic deformaties)

[Kiyom]

In Project 880, Selfridge wanted to use the Na'vi as workers because human workers were too expensive. When he realized they will never help destroy their own planet, and since producing an avatar is very complex and expensive, he suggests to "breed his own workforce population here from among the avatars. It'll take longer, but at least we can raise them with our language and some values that make sense. Safer and more reliable in the long run."

It appears here that reproduction between two avatars is not only possible, but it also produces a child with a mind of his/her own. Of course since it was in the first version of the script, it can't be considered canon, but I think that this is very funny and that the idea is interesting. Imagine Selfridge asking Norm and Grace to make an avatar baby...

[exostrike]

Imagine Selfridge asking Norm and Grace to make an avatar baby...

Pass me the brain bleach and hand it to the shippers

[MarkD]

I read somewhere it was said that Na'vi anatomy was similar to human anatomy in that area of the body. So yeah as to the genitals, both species look the same, save for size.

The avatars have inhibitors to prevent any mating between them since they are only used for the drivers to easily get around Pandora. One fanfic had Max deactivate Jake's inhibitors so he and Neytiri can have a baby. IMO it makes sense given Na'vi have an extremely strong sex drive when the urge to mate kicks in. Compared to a human, a Na'vi in the mood is worse as once that kicks in, it has to be dealt with.

As one site mentioned on Na'vi mating, same sex pairings is not uncommon as seen with humans. It does happen. My idea is what if a Na'vi found a human to his/ her's liking? Another Na'vi or an avatar is one thing as many fanfics do go that route, but a human? Who knows. Imagine Jake's surprise if a woman from the Omaticaya told him she was in love with a human woman. He is still human in the mind and well his own personal thoughts would cloud his brain. XD Neytiri slaps him back to reality. LOL