what the humans did

[Neytiri_makto]

Do you think it was really that awfull?

[KalaKuival]

Well, I must admit that when I watched the movie for the first time it really seemed okay, I mean the mining thing and destroying some of the junge for that. Later when i saw the Na'vi lifestyle I kinda came to senses that yea, it is bad and awful. Of course destroying the Hometree was wrong and wanting to blow up the tree of Souls. So yea...It was awful.

[Lobos]

I don't think they were justified to destroy an entire tribe of people for a temporary profit gain. If Pandora was as rich with Unobtainium as they claimed it was, they could have at least gone elsewhere first. Devouring the resources of your home planet does not give you the right to go elsewhere and steal it from there. That's my opinion, though, call me a hippie if you want heh.

Edit: Plus Quaritch just kinda seemed like he wanted to blow something up, as opposed to helping the human race.

[Neytiri_makto]

in my country we have a saying :the purpose excuse the means .and jake said that "the aliens went back to thei're dying world" .mining pandora would destroy its in one way or another but it would save earth.what they did was selfish but not really that awfull except for absolutely wanting to mine home tree

[KalaKuival]

Oh yea, it was kinda personal too with Quaritch. I mean somehow it turned out to be one hell of a fight but after the ship with Quaritch fell down and he survived in his AMP suit he told "Nothing's over when I'm still breathing" (or something like that). All the other ships were reteating but he had this obsession to kill Jake and Neytiri and the Na'vi. One cruel man.

[Neytiri_makto]

Oh yea, it was kinda personal too with Quaritch. I mean somehow it turned out to be one hell of a fight but after the ship with Quaritch fell down and he survived in his AMP suit he told "Nothing's over when I'm still breathing" (or something like that). All the other ships were reteating but he had this obsession to kill Jake and Neytiri and the Na'vi. One cruel man.

yeah your right but from what we see in the movie is that jake was on the same road as him until the avatar program and he even agreed to give him info

[Lobos]

yeah your right but from what we see in the movie is that jake was on the same road as him until the avatar program and he even agreed to give him info

I must agree...if he had run into, say, the SON of the clan leaders and HE had taught him the ways of the Na'vi, I'm not so sure it would have ended up the same way...shame on you, Jake! But it turned out well, so I'm happy. :)

[Neytiri_makto]

I must agree...if he had run into, say, the SON of the clan leaders and HE had taught him the ways of the Na'vi, I'm not so sure it would have ended up the same way...shame on you, Jake! But it turned out well, so I'm happy. :)not exactly what i meant but it makes even more sense. without neytiri i doubt he would have given a crap about the na'vi

[Sham]

After they fired up the home tree I felt hate for humans. That material what they came to dig up belonged to planet Pandora..meaning, you should be happy what do you have in your own planet and if something is missing, you cant take that from other planet, against will!

[Mikash]

After they fired up the home tree I felt hate for humans. That material what they came to dig up belonged to planet Pandora..meaning, you should be happy what do you have in your own planet and if something is missing, you cant take that from other planet, against will!

I absolutely agree!!

[Neytiri_makto]

After they fired up the home tree I felt hate for humans. That material what they came to dig up belonged to planet Pandora..meaning, you should be happy what do you have in your own planet and if something is missing, you cant take that from other planet, against will!
this is where i disagree if the human race is at risk you do whatever you have to for your race but i would try a different way or take the unobtanium from another place of pandora

[Gurnblansten]

they really didnt need to blow up Home tree, that was unneccesary. but i think they could've found some other reserve of unobtanium somewhere else. and what about he other moons orbiting polyphemus? shouldnt they all have relatively the same minerals in them as pandora?

[Neytiri_makto]

they really didnt need to blow up Home tree, that was unneccesary. but i think they could've found some other reserve of unobtanium somewhere else. and what about he other moons orbiting polyphemus? shouldnt they all have relatively the same minerals in them as pandora?
not really.does the moon have the same minerals as earth?

[Gurnblansten]

no but im saying that they probably were formed around the same time and place so its possible that they could have simmilarities.

[Elequin]

First I think even without Neytiri he would have sided with the Omaticaya as he said to her when he confessed, he fell in love with the forest and the people, and then her. It was because of her helping him find himself and all that made it possible though.

Just today, the fourth time I watched Avatar I kept in mind about how Quartrich was fighting for human survival. It seemed like everyone else was there for the money, but thats what drives us humans, the hand that put them there was doing it for the survival of humankind. I'll say it was interesting keeping this in mind and trying to actually side with Quartrich. You also have ot remeber he has been through some tough bush and it has made him into a more coarse person, but he fought for what he believed in, and thats what matters.

[Neytiri_makto]

First I think even without Neytiri he would have sided with the Omaticaya as he said to her when he confessed, he fell in love with the forest and the people, and then her. It was because of her helping him find himself and all that made it possible though.

Just today, the fourth time I watched Avatar I kept in mind about how Quartrich was fighting for human survival. It seemed like everyone else was there for the money, but thats what drives us humans, the hand that put them there was doing it for the survival of humankind. I'll say it was interesting keeping this in mind and trying to actually side with Quartrich. You also have ot remeber he has been through some tough bush and it has made him into a more coarse person, but he fought for what he believed in, and thats what matters.you are completly wrong .the colonel was insane or trying to prove that we are superior to the na'vi .he doesn't give up even when he lost the war and does everything out of cruelty as another member said

[Elequin]

Well its a matter of opinion, from the interview I watched with the actor of Quartrich this is what he believed his character was, I'm going to go with that.

[Neytiri_makto]

Well its a matter of opinion, from the interview I watched with the actor of Quartrich this is what he believed his character was, I'm going to go with that.maybe but if you really pay attention to the dialog he would prefer a war rather than a diplomatic solution

[Mikash]

It's bad anyway. They didn't need to destroy the home-tree as fast as they did. I mean- they took 6 years to go there, right? As if a few more days would have killed them!

[Elequin]

He did try to minimize casualties I think. I think you should watch it with the idea that Quartrich was fighting for human survival. If you would have told me that the first couple times I watched it I would not have agreed either.

[Mikash]

Mhh.. guess I'm gonna watch it with that aspect next time! Thanks.

[Neytiri_makto]

He did try to minimize casualties I think. I think you should watch it with the idea that Quartrich was fighting for human survival. If you would have told me that the first couple times I watched it I would not have agreed either.
"i want to be back for in time dinner ":rolleyes:

[Zoconno]

I don't think they were justified to destroy an entire tribe of people for a temporary profit gain. If Pandora was as rich with Unobtainium as they claimed it was, they could have at least gone elsewhere first. Devouring the resources of your home planet does not give you the right to go elsewhere and steal it from there. That's my opinion, though, call me a hippie if you want heh.

Edit: Plus Quaritch just kinda seemed like he wanted to blow something up, as opposed to helping the human race.

Yeah, the reason that Quaritch was so eager, is because they were hired guns. They were mercenaries per-say. He didn't get anything but money out of everything that he did on Pandora. He was pretty much just a huge JERK.

[Gurnblansten]

but you got to admit that quatrich did bring a certain element into the film making people "love to hate him" sucking us deeper into the story. and the actor performed amazingly.

[Zoconno]

Yes, he was a necessary figure in the movie.

[Neytiri_makto]

but you got to admit that quatrich did bring a certain element into the film making people "love to hate him" sucking us deeper into the story. and the actor performed amazingly.definatly agree

[Elequin]

"i want to be back for in time dinner ":rolleyes:
Things like that help not think what you are actually doing. Something you get from being in war for so long.
Another thing is he said he would fight to his last breath, if all he cared was about money that is not the mental attitude he would have. He fought for what he believed in.

[Nicodem]

Stephen Lang said somewhere that he didn't play a villain and he was just playing a man doing his job though I remember he wanted to attack the Na'vi from the beginning and he later became obsessed with revenge on Jake.

RDA = originally OK (because of Avatar Program) then bad after Hometree
Quaritch = bad guy from the get-go
:P

[neytirifanboy]

I must agree...if he had run into, say, the SON of the clan leaders and HE had taught him the ways of the Na'vi, I'm not so sure it would have ended up the same way...shame on you, Jake! But it turned out well, so I'm happy. :)

Well that depends on whether Jake Butters his bread on both sides or not.

Also, what would happen if Neytiri was ugly. In fact, for all we know, by Na'vi standards, perhaps she is.

[~ViperSB1~]

Yeah, Humans Are EVIL. We Actually Did Something Very Much Like This In The Past, And Will Probably Do It Again. Wait... Were Doing It Now. Hah, Humans Are Great, How They Never Learn From The Past To Prevent Atrocities In The Future.

[Elequin]

What humans do these Atrocities to are nothing like the Na'vi though. I think the closest would be Native americans, and still they are not as innocent and pure as the Na'vi.

[Neytiri]

I'm thinking that what the humans did on Pandora is no more thoughtless than what humans are doing to each other on Earth. Which does not make it right, by any stretch. I do however think that if Quaritch had made tsahaylu with an Ikran, he would have had intense second thoughts. As it stands, he is just former military private employee with a one-track mind. Whoever said that Jake would not have sided with the Na'vi had it not been for the female Neytiri aspect, I think I have to disagree upon reflection. Neytiri certainly drove his passion, but if you had made tsahaylu with an Ikran I think it might have been enough for many, if not everyone, to realize that the most precious resource on Pandora is not unobtainium.

[Jay]

Most of the “Sky People” were not bad, just misinformed. The colonel led everyone who worked for the company to believe that the Na’vi were dangerous savages, (but Jake, Grace, Norm and Trudy knew better). Plus, those soldiers were are mercenaries, and only fought for money.

[kaliko]

I think what the company did is awful, fueled entirely by greed and with complete disregard for compassion and even science.

But it's something I don't think they could not get away with in real life. Realistically, if Pandora existed, I think there would be a greater jurisdiction in charge of overseeing who did business there, and what they did to the land. Surely I don't think any "for-profit" organizations would be put in place before the proper research was done on the land and its people. Controversial issues are closely watched in democratic societies, organizations like Amnesty International would be an example of an organization who would stand against something like this happening.

[AlphaNavi]

My human self has limited me of my Na'Vi strength. I need to see the sequel inorder to evolve me from this human destructive nature.

[Orcakat]

What the humans did in this movie, and the fact that they were willing to do it for the pay.

The sad thing is, things like this are going on around the world today. I think that was one of the reasons JC did this-- to make people more aware about these situations.

[Jacob]

Based on the movie alone I though it was clear that humans were there simply to make money off of their "little grey rock" and then bask in their stock options and end-of-year bonuses. From the Activist Survival Guide a more sympathetic picture is painted. Earth's economy and much of it's technology (including simple power generation) is dependent on Unobtanium as a high-temperature superconductor. Without Unobtanium the human civilization, or at least large parts of it, would be royally screwed. This seems to be somewhat contradictory to Selfridge's statement that the "only reason" the RDA was on Pandora was the price of Unobtanium, but let's assume for the sake of the argument that the ASG is correct.

I don't think that the human actions were justified, however. A moral case could be made that for the preservation of your species you have the right to steal from someone else (sort of like the question 'does a starving man have the right to steal a loaf of bread?') or based on a simple numerical comparison: billions of humans vs. thousands of Na'vi, whose needs are greater? This doesn't mean that the humans shouldn't have tried harder for diplomacy.

There were several major failings in the humans approach prior to the war. First, they didn't truly attempt to understand the Na'vi. Selfridge offered the Na'vi things humans wanted but which were worthless to the natives and even the scientists approached them from a very arrogant standpoint (with their cup already full, so to speak). Their idea of diplomacy was apparently to treat an alien race as they would humans and respond with bafflement and indignation when the natives didn't act as humans do.

Second, even when trying diplomacy (however half-heartedly), they were clearly speaking out of both sides of their mouths. As Grace puts it, relationships tend to go south when you resort to machine guns. Having a quasi-war with the Na'vi was not what they should have been doing while trying to find a diplomatic solution. Had it not been for that the situation would have been much better when Jake arrived on Pandora and an outright war might have been avoided.

Third, relatedly, the humans rushed into war. Quaritch clearly wanted war from the outset and laughed at attempts at diplomacy. Selfridge was willing to go along with him to a point all along and didn't give much resistance to Quaritch's plan to attack Hometree (along with all its civilians).

Plus, once the war started, Quaritch was not so concerned about casualties as some have suggested he was. He gassed Hometree and less than a minute later started massive fires and began the toppling of the tree ... right onto the heads of the fleeing refugees. Plus he planned to bomb the Tree of Souls which would not only emotionally and spiritually wound every single Na'vi on Pandora but would kill all the nom-combatants taking refuge around the tree.

In summary, even if the humans needed Unobtanium desperately, their approach was hopelessly amoral and indefensible. Add to this the fact that there were plenty of other Unobtanium deposits on Pandora besides the one beneath Hometree. Sure, the Hometree was one was the largest and most convenient; but it was also the home of the Omoticaya. The humans were arrogant and greedy enough to not bother looking farther though.

[Nicodem]

I think what the company did is awful, fueled entirely by greed and with complete disregard for compassion and even science.

RDA funded the avatar program though.

[kaliko]

Based on the movie alone I though it was clear that humans were there simply to make money off of their "little grey rock" and then bask in their stock options and end-of-year bonuses. From the Activist Survival Guide a more sympathetic picture is painted. Earth's economy and much of it's technology (including simple power generation) is dependent on Unobtanium as a high-temperature superconductor. Without Unobtanium the human civilization, or at least large parts of it, would be royally screwed. This seems to be somewhat contradictory to Selfridge's statement that the "only reason" the RDA was on Pandora was the price of Unobtanium, but let's assume for the sake of the argument that the ASG is correct.

I don't think that the human actions were justified, however. A moral case could be made that for the preservation of your species you have the right to steal from someone else (sort of like the question 'does a starving man have the right to steal a loaf of bread?') or based on a simple numerical comparison: billions of humans vs. thousands of Na'vi, whose needs are greater? This doesn't mean that the humans shouldn't have tried harder for diplomacy.

There were several major failings in the humans approach prior to the war. First, they didn't truly attempt to understand the Na'vi. Selfridge offered the Na'vi things humans wanted but which were worthless to the natives and even the scientists approached them from a very arrogant standpoint (with their cup already full, so to speak). Their idea of diplomacy was apparently to treat an alien race as they would humans and respond with bafflement and indignation when the natives didn't act as humans do.

Second, even when trying diplomacy (however half-heartedly), they were clearly speaking out of both sides of their mouths. As Grace puts it, relationships tend to go south when you resort to machine guns. Having a quasi-war with the Na'vi was not what they should have been doing while trying to find a diplomatic solution. Had it not been for that the situation would have been much better when Jake arrived on Pandora and an outright war might have been avoided.

Third, relatedly, the humans rushed into war. Quaritch clearly wanted war from the outset and laughed at attempts at diplomacy. Selfridge was willing to go along with him to a point all along and didn't give much resistance to Quaritch's plan to attack Hometree (along with all its civilians).

Plus, once the war started, Quaritch was not so concerned about casualties as some have suggested he was. He gassed Hometree and less than a minute later started massive fires and began the toppling of the tree ... right onto the heads of the fleeing refugees. Plus he planned to bomb the Tree of Souls which would not only emotionally and spiritually wound every single Na'vi on Pandora but would kill all the nom-combatants taking refuge around the tree.

In summary, even if the humans needed Unobtanium desperately, their approach was hopelessly amoral and indefensible. Add to this the fact that there were plenty of other Unobtanium deposits on Pandora besides the one beneath Hometree. Sure, the Hometree was one was the largest and most convenient; but it was also the home of the Omoticaya. The humans were arrogant and greedy enough to not bother looking farther though.

Well-said, totally agree!

[Jake]

I just found out in the script that they actualy wanted to trick the navi into working for them, cheap labor.

Thats why they built schools and tried to entice them with technology.

Yes, what the humans did is very wrong.

[neytirifanboy]

In summary, even if the humans needed Unobtanium desperately, their approach was hopelessly amoral and indefensible. Add to this the fact that there were plenty of other Unobtanium deposits on Pandora besides the one beneath Hometree. Sure, the Hometree was one was the largest and most convenient; but it was also the home of the Omoticaya. The humans were arrogant and greedy enough to not bother looking farther though.

Agreed with all you said. Also presumably the Unobtanium would not last forever. Eventually they would deplete it until it was all gone.

[Navi's saviour]

Agreed with all you said. Also presumably the Unobtanium would not last forever. Eventually they would deplete it until it was all gone.

Does anyone know if Unbotanium is an actual element?

[Neytiri_makto]

Does anyone know if Unbotanium is an actual element?its on wikipedia

[Jacob]

its on wikipedia

Going by the Wikipedia page it's not a real element, just a word for some substance (not necessarily an element, possibly a compound or molecule) with properties that are thought to be impossible to obtain, hence the name.

[IloveNeytiri]

Well that depends on whether Jake Butters his bread on both sides or not.

Also, what would happen if Neytiri was ugly. In fact, for all we know, by Na'vi standards, perhaps she is.

Actually, I was watching the other Na'Vi women during all the gathering and rituals. They weren't ugly, but they weren't pretty as well.
Neytiri really stood out as a special one.

[swordwhale]

not exactly what i meant but it makes even more sense. without neytiri i doubt he would have given a crap about the na'vi

I think he would. If you watch his human form character, it's fairly flat, dull and grey... subdued... determined to not let anyone tell him he can't do things, but somehow kind of hopeless. When he first wakes up in his avatar form, and wiggles his toes; there is the moment of truth, the moment his transformation has begun. When he runs off, and ends, sliding and digging his toes into the soil of Pandora, you know the path he must take, with or without a hot blue chick. (By the way, I think she's one of the coolest female characters I've seen in a long time!)

[misswildfire]

I don't think they were justified to destroy an entire tribe of people for a temporary profit gain. If Pandora was as rich with Unobtainium as they claimed it was, they could have at least gone elsewhere first. Devouring the resources of your home planet does not give you the right to go elsewhere and steal it from there. That's my opinion, though, call me a hippie if you want heh.

Edit: Plus Quaritch just kinda seemed like he wanted to blow something up, as opposed to helping the human race.

Yes, but you have to realize that this isn't the first time humans have tried to destroy a group or people who stand in the way of what they want. It's littered throughout our history and it's not really a surprise that it made a huge appearance in the movie.

[Lovecraft]

I think that what needs to be done needs to be done. They came to pandora for a reason, to mine Unobtainium for use back at Earth. Even if the Na'vi were trying to stop them i wouldn't attack them i would stop mining the moon and talk to the natives.

[misswildfire]

Maybe you would, but unfotunately, not all humans are like you. Money makes the world go round and also makes us corrupt.

[Elequin]

Selfridge was saying there are plenty of tree's and that the Na'vi could move. Well it works the other way around too, there is plenty of unobtanium... the humans could move. At least thats a better option than kicking the Na'vi out of their home I think :)

[Tsyal Makto]

Selfridge was saying there are plenty of tree's and that the Na'vi could move. Well it works the other way around too, there is plenty of unobtanium... the humans could move. At least thats a better option than kicking the Na'vi out of their home I think :)

They would have done it anyway - humans are a species of "more." They weren't going to leave until the entire planet was hollowed out, it's just the way we operate - history is full of examples.

The entire RDA operation was immoral from the start - humans made their own bed by overpopulating and overindustrializing earth, make them sleep in it. If the humans really wanted to turn things around they should have been looking for plant and animal species that could hopefully replace the ones that had gone extint on earth and to start rebuilding the ecosystem, but no, what did they go after? An energy source to keep their current lifestyle going.

[RDAGoon]

I think if you have to bomb someone out of their home and steal their resources then yeah you've done something pretty evil. Especially when your world has been decaying for hundreds of years due to environmental destruction. Are all the humans evil? No. I can't imagine growing up in 2154 Earth where the world is a concrete jungle and falling apart with no greenspace whatsoever. I might see myself going to a place like Pandora to mine because its the only way my family can survive. What if I have kids to feed and the economy's gone to **** back on Earth?

[fortress8]

I agree with everyone that's it's morally wrong about all the things humans have done. But everyone is so wrapped up in the Na'vi point of view they forget the human civilians view.
Your a human civilian. You have a wife and 2 kid's. You have to support them. All you know or all the media has said that the major energy source ,unobtanium, has stopped being mined. Your life is crappy but you know it will get a lot worse without that mineral. All that's making this happen to you is a few thousand natives. What would you do? would you kill na'vi so your family can have a better life? maybe not good but better than it would be if there was no unobtanium. I think that has been the question throughout history would you kill to preserve your current way of way of life? Just because the person your killing has a better moral standpoint would you care about that if it stop's your family from living in the street's from starving to death? Remember all you know is what earth has told you. Even if you learned the truth you might be sympathetic but the above is still the question you have to ask yourself.

[IloveNeytiri]

I agree with everyone that's it's morally wrong about all the things humans have done. But everyone is so wrapped up in the Na'vi point of view they forget the human civilians view.
Your a human civilian. You have a wife and 2 kid's. You have to support them. All you know or all the media has said that the major energy source ,unobtanium, has stopped being mined. Your life is crappy but you know it will get a lot worse without that mineral. All that's making this happen to you is a few thousand natives. What would you do? would you kill na'vi so your family can have a better life? maybe not good but better than it would be if there was no unobtanium. I think that has been the question throughout history would you kill to preserve your current way of way of life? Just because the person your killing has a better moral standpoint would you care about that if it stop's your family from living in the street's from starving to death? Remember all you know is what earth has told you. Even if you learned the truth you might be sympathetic but the above is still the question you have to ask yourself.

You have a valid point.
However, you are asking us to compare the world in 2154 to living on Pandora? I would think most people would leave for Pandora immediately.
Keep in mind that throughout the course of history, the majority of people have had no say on how the world is shaped and run. Just because the people in power might want to preserve the way they live, the middle class....or should I say proletarians will want to actually HAVE a chance of survival, be able to hunt for food, live naturally and of their own lifestyle and accord, ( The cyber-punk pictures on the wiki make me think everyone is either extremely rich or in deep poverty ) instead of starving in a deserted warehouse or something.

[Einherjar]

Hometree must have taken thousand of years to grow, so that was a big waste.
I think that James Cameron has a good point with how the humans act - purerly put of greed. It's drawing everyone over one line, but thats the way our society is going at the moment.

[RDAGoon]

I would say greed born out of desperation. Humanity as a whole needs the unobtainium. The RDA on Pandora is simply using that need to make stupid amounts of money. It's no different than a drug addiction. Unobtainium is the drug, the RDA is the dealer and humanity is the addict.

[Cynical Skyman]

They would have done it anyway - humans are a species of "more." They weren't going to leave until the entire planet was hollowed out, it's just the way we operate - history is full of examples.

The entire RDA operation was immoral from the start - humans made their own bed by overpopulating and overindustrializing earth, make them sleep in it. If the humans really wanted to turn things around they should have been looking for plant and animal species that could hopefully replace the ones that had gone extint on earth and to start rebuilding the ecosystem, but no, what did they go after? An energy source to keep their current lifestyle going.

Trying to replace or rebuild the ecosystem on Earth, wouldn't really work. Seeing how the whole planet has turned into a city, more or less.

I imagine Pandora was somewhat of a "final solution" for many humans. Sure, they had dug themselves one heck of a hole. But what then?

Should they just stay and rot on earth?

With the RDA leaving Pandora. I have no doubt that thousands ( if not millions ) of humans will suffer.

[IloveNeytiri]

But yo!
Don't wanna be pessimistic, but humans dying out is a blessing for life on Earth!