There is no alternative to oil

[exostrike]

I feel that there is a growthing realisation that there isn't really an sustainable alternative to fossil fuels for powering human civilisation.

Wind: you would have to cover entire countries with them to provide enough energy
Solar: Large sections of the world are too cloudy for them to be effecient
Wave: The salt corrodes the metal
Bio: takes too much land out of food production which is going to be hit heavily by climate change
Geo-thermal: undeveloped and risks volcanos

Nuclear is the only really pratical alternative to fossil fuels, but its so poltically toxic that no one will touch it. And fusion is at the moment economically unworkable.


And we are not going to reduce general consumption of energy because it is not poltically acceptable for polticans to say you can not have things that were once freely avaliable. There would be revolt, either poltically or militarily. The only way you could recude consumption would be through a facist coup and massive rationing under a stalinist reign of terror and control. Hell, the only really sustainable civillisation is a agrarian society using hand and animal power enforced by a feudal dictatorship who control the remaining industrial base which produces the weapons used to opress the population. Any entrepreneur who creates processes which consume more resources must be removed because it would lead to re-development and increase resources extration/deplition. Ultimately we would have to entirely remove the human drive for betterment. Becoming machine-like automata doing jobs simply to exist, not caring about the universe, not seeking to understand any thing. Simply surving and obeying orders and protocal from their masters. Just like the Na'vi.

[_Omaticaya_]

Maybe It's more like "No alternative to saving money".

Humans want too much, So much more than they actually NEED. *I Want, I Buy, Oh look, a year has passed = Old ****. Throw away*

Repeated again, and again, and again.

Technology has the solutions. For instance, Solar is expensive yes, but once completed, a whole hot country such as Australia or Italy for example can be efficient and produce enough for other territories aswell, partially at least.

I've seen documentaries about Farms in the world, that use Piles of Pooh, yes Sh!t, from their own lovely healthy cows, and Give electricity to their whole farm, and their whole neighbourhood.

Disequation:

1 Farm: No Pollution, Clean Food, +Electricity / +Power, and also, Credit for the owner well earned for his effort to produce Green power against the standard methods.

1 Industry: MUCH Pullution, Crap GM food/trash, as good as they make industry sound, All I hear everywhere is those same rich twats complaining like babies about the 'Crysis, Crysis Crysis'.

Now also, mate I personally like you and your interesting threads, but what the...

Simply surving and obeying orders and protocal from their masters. Just like the Na'vi.

Seriously? It's humanity today that is simply surviving like stupid automated robots, paying taxes buying GM groceries as there ain't much choice anyway if not spend double on Bio food, ain't that a ****ing scam too?

The Na'vi, are the ones Living mate, no Protocol, just Faith, Respect, Love, for Eywa and Nature, that's where Life comes from.
I guess you can see Eywa under that way too, "Master" but not as an oppressive one, simply as a Benign Mother, It's Very different.
A Mother, guides and teaches her children, the Na'vi, with Love. A nasty master just commands for its self profit, a bit like Politicians yes.

[The Silver Stag]

Ah, the old energy conundrum. This is one problem I can't come up with a solution for (short of everybody being reasonable and utterly selfless in giving up things that require electricity, but in this age of tech dependants, that isn't going to happen)

I wish I could be happy with nuclear but the potential (albeit small) for large scale disaster which would affect not just humans leaves me worried. That and there is no way to dispose of the waste. Burying it isn't an option, anything contaminated by it will find it's way back to the surface and then we're all screwed, plus it seems like the 'out of sight out of mind' approach. Perhaps we could fire it into space and let the stars deal with it :P

Regardless of the solution, NOTHING will work if the demand for these things isn't dealt with. Infinite growth on a finite world doesn't work. The problem is maybe not which option we should choose but rather this illusion that we can carry on forever the way we are.

[_Omaticaya_]

NOTHING will work if the demand for these things isn't dealt with. Infinite growth on a finite world doesn't work. The problem is maybe not which option we should choose but rather this illusion that we can carry on forever the way we are.

^Well said.

[exostrike]

1 Farm: No Pollution, Clean Food, +Electricity / +Power, and also, Credit for the owner well earned for his effort to produce Green power against the standard methods.

Yes but you can not develop an advanced civilisation on small farms. All advanced in the world has been make in urban areas, where people have the economies of scale to produce complex technolgy and have the free time to think and experiment. Without urban areas technolgy and medicine would cease to exist and everyone else would be left in a grim existance of poor quality food due to lack of variety and overall quality resulting in shorter life spans and a general fall in health. Without concentration of knowledge, technolgy would breakdown and development would go into reverse. How ever you like it the modern world is build upon the city and everything we take for granted would build there.



The Na'vi, are the ones Living mate, no Protocol, just Faith, Respect, Love, for Eywa and Nature, that's where Life comes from.
I guess you can see Eywa under that way too, "Master" but not as an oppressive one, simply as a Benign Mother, It's Very different.
A Mother, guides and teaches her children, the Na'vi, with Love. A nasty master just commands for its self profit, a bit like Politicians yes.

But a master instructs his charges on what to do, how to live their lives, and that Ewya does. Via religion and direct control via the link it has sucked the developmental dirve out of the Na'vi. No longer do they strive to improve their lot, to build better weapons, clothing and technolgy. Instead they make do, even if it hurts them and prays to their 'mother'. In attempting to keep the balance of nature, to kee resources from being exploited ewya has turned the Na'vi into a subservient race with no future. They are content because they know no difference, because their god tell them it is. Either way you look at it Ewya is a master.

That is hard I know but when you think about it on the fundamental level, that how it appears to me.

[RD-701]

This image, or variations on it, is probably my favourite ever when it comes to the issue of the availability of alternative energy sources;


http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/189.jpg

Total global consumption: 15-16 TW (depending on who you ask). Amount of wind power available: 370 TW (over 23 times current global consumption). Amount of solar power available: 89 000 TW (over 5000 times current global consumption).

It is pretty clear that there is enough renewable energy on Earth to supply our needs. The problem simply involves accessing it. It's a technological problem, not a fundamental problem (trying to suck oil out of the ground that's no longer there, is a fundamental problem). And it's far more worthwhile to solve said problems than it is to sit around and do nothing while the world falls apart.

Solar is a pretty plausible source of energy- if the average availability of solar energy on Earth is 175 watts per square meter, we only need to cover 1.943 million km^2 with solar panels- an area smaller than Mexico. It might sound like a lot, but consider that Earth has over 500 million square kilometers of area- the area I'm talking about would amount to only 1.3% of Earth's land area and be spread across the globe (this figures a panel efficiency of 20%, and a 'safety factor' of 400%- to account for the day/night cycle and weather conditions).

Of course, there are areas on Earth where the intensity of sunlight is far higher than 175 w/m^2- deserts and other arid regions. The panel area if located in such places could be far lower than what would be needed elsewhere. In addition, arid land has low biodensity, low human population density, and is often useless or near-useless for many other purposes, such as agriculture.
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/7.png

Of course, most desert areas are sparsely populated, and most population centers- areas that require a lot of electricity- are not located in deserts. Power would have to be transmitted over considerable distances if major generation centers were located in deserts. However, panel arrays located in cloudier regions could still supply power if the network was robust enough to deal with fluctuations in availability of sunlight due to weather, etc, and utilised energy storage systems for when sunlight is not available.


And we are not going to reduce general consumption of energy because it is not poltically acceptable for polticans to say you can not have things that were once freely avaliable.

Of course you can reduce consumption. By increasing efficiency, consumption can drop as use remains constant. This method of reducing strain on supply relies on the development of technology, rather than draconian measures to limit the population's living standard.



Simply surving and obeying orders and protocal from their masters. Just like the Na'vi.

Uh-oh. I don't think that comment will go down well... :ntongue:


1 Farm: No Pollution, Clean Food, +Electricity / +Power, and also, Credit for the owner well earned for his effort to produce Green power against the standard methods.

1 Industry: MUCH Pullution, Crap GM food/trash, as good as they make industry sound, All I hear everywhere is those same rich twats complaining like babies about the 'Crysis, Crysis Crysis'.


Would be true, if:

1. Farms didn't produce pollution and ecological damage (they do, and they can produce a lot of it. It depends on what kind of farm you're talking about).

2. Industry were the universal force of evil, and worthless burden, that you make it out to be (it's not- industry is like agriculture; you can have sensible industry, and insensible industry. And industry makes pretty much everything. The computer that you visit AF on? Made by industry. The transport system you use? Made by industry. The place you were born in? Made by industry. The utensils you eat with? Made by industry. The list is endless. Industry is universal, and many people would suffer and die without it- you and I likely included. The key isn't to demonise industry, but make sure that it does its job well, and that it does its job with respect).

Also, most of the genetic modification done in human history hasn't been done by 'industry', and recieves very little complaint. Many raise their arms simply upon hearing the term 'GM', but own a dog with no qualms. Those animals are wolves! Well... they were wolves. Until, over thousands of years, humans performed all sorts of wizardry on their genomes. And the food that we all eat? Even 100 years ago, it would have been the product of some form of genetic modification- that's because farmers select the largest/tastiest/most nutritious plants/animals to breed for their farms. Maize isn't natural- it's some kind of weird modified version of a plant called "teosinte". I bet most people haven't even heard of "teosinte" (I hadn't until only a short while back).

http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/190.jpg

On the left is teosinte. On the right is maize. What did they do to those plants? :an-shock:


short of everybody being reasonable and utterly selfless in giving up things that require electricity


It is about as reasonable as everyone being selfless enough to give up air. Right now, we need electricity to live- modern infrastructure is the only thing that can grant our basic needs without total societal collapse occuring and causing catastrophic and immediate damage to the planet.


Perhaps we could fire it into space and let the stars deal with it :P

Would be a better solution if it wasn't for the fact that rockets are fairly unreliable as modes of transport go- a roughly 1% chance of failure. I don't like the idea of radionlucides leaking into groundwater, but I like the idea of high-level radioactive waste falling from the sky even less...

[_Omaticaya_]

Yes but you can not develop an advanced civilisation on small farms. All advanced in the world has been make in urban areas, where people have the economies of scale to produce complex technolgy and have the free time to think and experiment. Without urban areas technolgy and medicine would cease to exist and everyone else would be left in a grim existance of poor quality food due to lack of variety and overall quality resulting in shorter life spans and a general fall in health. Without concentration of knowledge, technolgy would breakdown and development would go into reverse. How ever you like it the modern world is build upon the city and everything we take for granted would build there.

You're right mate, I Know. I try small attempts to make points, but in the end, that phrase I quoted from The Silver Stag is the truth, and no matter how much talking we do about the importance of cities and technology and developement and all that, it always comes down to the people. Even if there was all the great Green change, You need the people's will to make it, the change, but no engineer or scientists is intelligent enough to change humanity's attitude today. I Hate people. I belong to another world I feel everyday... But that's another story.
I try to be optimist but fail everytime. The Scale and proportion of it all is too big...

So I give up, the only part I still will try and discuss about is the next...


But a master instructs his charges on what to do, how to live their lives, and that Ewya does. Via religion and direct control via the link it has sucked the developmental dirve out of the Na'vi. No longer do they strive to improve their lot, to build better weapons, clothing and technolgy. Instead they make do, even if it hurts them and prays to their 'mother'. In attempting to keep the balance of nature, to kee resources from being exploited ewya has turned the Na'vi into a subservient race with no future. They are content because they know no difference, because their god tell them it is. Either way you look at it Ewya is a master.

That is hard I know but when you think about it on the fundamental level, that how it appears to me.

Again, thankyou for being such a great guy to discuss with, seriously, you have great respect and It's admirable, and Rare, to find here often, *Shakes head*

Anyways back to the point: Ofcourse, that's how it appears to you and I see every thing you said reasonable and possible.

I Think instead, in my opinion, that yes okay, she may be a Master, but again, she is not commanding, or instructing as you said, only guiding. And I say that because I also think they are not Subservient as You said.
Now I wil try and make a point, I hope I make sense...
I know exactly what You mean, but what Mo'at says in the beginning about the Cup, I know it may be 'over used' generally, but profoudly speaking, she really is right, and wether or not all the other Omaticaya there, and all the other Na'vi, which may not even know what she said or feel the same about it, She knows, what she means, and it is deep. And in my opinion It's this: The way you described the Na'vi, being exploited and not striving to improve as if 'Imprisoned' by their faith, it makes me think of our Earth too, like when you see those scenes on tv of 'rich western' people going to Africa or SouthAmerica or somewhere, and you see all the little kids running and smiling at the camera and all excited about the technologic equipment and wondrously curious about it all. They live without it, and still, they're Smiling. It's so, annoying and I hate it, when people think, that the world should be such that those kids had a Wii and fancy clothes and light beer or blue jeans. Who made that standard? Who said that is the way happiness comes? The only truth about the 'Third world' being discontent is the only one worth Fighting for, Fod and Health for everyone, not all the Technology, that's another issue, which is not that important.
Can't we just admit, the modern world is an Illusion? It's only a resilient tool we use to find brief comfort, but the truth is in the smaller pure things, the ones Money just Cannot buy, You have to Find them Yourself, Inside, and Outside, in Nature for example.
I'm using this as a figure to explain (Trying to atleast lol), what I understood of your words, (tell me If I'm mistaken), as if You say that the Na'vi are too 'oppressed' and Bonded to Eywa and "Their Lot", to the point they force themselves to keep that way, even when Aware, especially after the arrival of the 'techy 22nd century' skypeople, that there is 'more' to life than bow and arrow.

No...

Well, all that rant to say, I don't think so. If the Na'vi Soul and Character, generally, is very much if not the same as Humans, then we all know, if they wanted, they would Rebel against their deity aswell and change their life, world and environment. But You see, I really think they don't. Just listen to Mo'at, and Neytiri's words, when they speak about their world with such Passion and Confidence, look at Tsu'tey's eyes, feel his Pain, when he sees his home being Cut down, and listen to Eytukan, as he dies for his people telling her daughter to protect the people, and just, better than any emergency association of this planet, look at all the People, finding refuge and Hope, at the Tree of Souls, that is Faith, and belief proven.

Therefore, they are Happy, and Content, as you said. Mostly because unlike what you said, I think that mate, they Do "know the difference", they saw the skypeople with all their lifestyle and their billion dollar ships and weapons and equipments, but they Decided, and they are comfortable, with rejecting it. After all, what did all that 'Difference' Us humans symbolize, bring? Pollution, Death, Capitalism? is it worth it?
Their future, is their present and their past. They hold on to their Everlasting Traditions and Values, and to me they seem to be doing pretty well :nsmile: better than us for sure, with all our hypocrite voting and huge socio-economic-political structures, they are just weak sand castles. Different centuries and countries, new fancy names in the game, same. ****. That's history in my view.

And You know, personally, what makes me Believe in what I say about this even more, is knowing Avatar is not just a film, and Tribes like the Omaticaya exist on Earth too, and believe in deities like Eywa, and are Happy with it and are troubled, by the evil humans, taking their homes away with no rights for their filthy needs...

[_Omaticaya_]

2. Industry were the universal force of evil, and worthless burden, that you make it out to be (it's not- industry is like agriculture; you can have sensible industry, and insensible industry. And industry makes pretty much everything. The computer that you visit AF on? Made by industry. The transport system you use? Made by industry. The place you were born in? Made by industry. The utensils you eat with? Made by industry. The list is endless. Industry is universal, and many people would suffer and die without it- you and I likely included. The key isn't to demonise industry, but make sure that it does its job well, and that it does its job with respect).

I know all that... I hope I don't have to make that discussion every time but it seems to be that way every bloody time -__-
I have Endless threads Of My Own, where I talk about my opinion on me and the world I live in, industry aswell. I'm not going to waste time explainging it here all again everytime someone tries to say I'm a hypocrite for acting like I'm not part of this consumerism world aswell.
You See, Exostrike for example, got past it maybe assuming it was not that important, I don't understand why everyone can't be as Cool as he seems to be most of the time.
Obviously I'm on a ****ing laptop aswell now, and I'm in this game as much as everyone, but no, as you said, just like the industry, the tools can be used in good and bad ways. And there are people that try and live with less, and less and less dependance on this industrial world even though keeping in contact with brothers and sisters on AF maybe, with an industry product yes.
Anyway, I said, I'm not in the mood for this **** I've already explained a billion times.

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

everybody being reasonable and utterly selfless











oh god, i spewed my mouthful of Dr. Pepper all over the desk. :embarrassed:

[Porthos1]

@Exostrike: “But a master instructs his charges on what to do, how to live their lives, and that Ewya does. Via religion and direct control via the link it has sucked the developmental dirve out of the Na'vi. No longer do they strive to improve their lot, to build better weapons, clothing and technolgy. Instead they make do, even if it hurts them and prays to their 'mother'. In attempting to keep the balance of nature, to kee resources from being exploited ewya has turned the Na'vi into a subservient race with no future. They are content because they know no difference, because their god tell them it is. Either way you look at it Ewya is a master.

I’m going to have to disagree with this comment even though it deviates from the main discussion. Matter of fact, I think that little parting shot in post #1 “Just like the Na’vi” and this paragraph borders on being a troll maneuver…with nothing to do with alternatives to oil. Usually you are more subtle.

I do not see the relationship of Eywa with the Na’vi as one of Master over vassals. Eywa is not instructing her “charges” on how to live. She does not direct her “flock” utilizing religion nor telling them “what they want to hear” to be mindless stagnant puppets. The relationship does not fit your human centric idea.

The Na’vi are part of Eywa. Eywa is a planet wide sentient biosphere where all the life on Pandora is her “body.” This phenomena floats around in the void without any other desire but to be what it has evolved into being. Its body, and the Na’vi, is not being “held back” because there is no reason to be what it is not. The Na’vi live and die in this relationship doing what is natural for them. You can’t impose your human entities of religion, philosophy, psychology or developmental drive onto this alien system because they aren’t in your reality.

Let us stick to the theme of your thread…something about oil?

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

Simply surving and obeying orders and protocal from their masters. Just like the Na'vi.










oh no you didn't! :angry: *pushes the dislike button, repeatedly*

41740

[Porthos1]

There is a dislike button? You mean I didn't have to write so much? :confusion::flustered:

[Eternal Enigma]

Being economical isn't difficult, but you have to want to change. And why wouldn't you?

Being economical saves you money and the more money you save the more you're able to do.

You could easily convert a vehicle to electric or hydraulic drive, which could put it in the 100 MPG range or if you go with electric it could be absolutely free. If you do a solar/wind conversion on your vehicle you wouldn't have to plug it in to recharge it, which would make it 100% free aside from maintenance... just make sure it has tires on it and go.

You can go with solar/wind technology for your home and it would run it with no problem especially if you switch your lighting to LED technology.

Imagine life without an electric bill... imagine life without paying for gas... imagine a better life.

The average American home has an annual electric bill of $5,000. In 20 years you've spent $100,000 on electricity alone...

Now imagine being able to save that money... think of what you could do... the education you could receive... the things you could buy... the vacations you could go on.

Life isn't difficult or unfair... it's made that way by ignorant people.

Knowledge is power... knowledge frees you of the burden of ignorance. For those who believe "ignorance is bliss" poverty must be paradise.

[exostrike]

The problem is solar energy plants at the equator and far from global population zones is that we would have to move across thousands of miles via powerlines. And an awful lot of energy is lost in powerlines at short distance, at ultra long distances it would be even worse. The only way to solve this would be to develop a room temprature super conductor.

Solar in colder climates would be uneconomical, not because it wouldn't enough, but because it would produces energy at variable levels. A national grid needs a steady and reliable flow in order to work, otherwise you get powercuts. Even with storage your still going to get periods of low productivity due to bad weather, with would play hell with the economy and peoples standard of living. Solar in colder countries is fine for home use, but it is not pratical for national power generation.

Also while you could improve efficency, its offen far too expensive for ordinary people to afford in the short-term. The only way you could acheive it would be with government funding. But its difficult to get government to stump up the funding for that when there are other pressing matters to deal with. There is also the problem of being accussed of creating false economic growth by providing a temporary boost to the insulation industry.

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

There is a dislike button? You mean I didn't have to write so much? :confusion::flustered:













unfortunately, at this time the 'dislike' button is purely a virtual process, but hopefully technology will someday allow it.:nlol:


41745

[RD-701]

The problem is solar energy plants at the equator and far from global population zones is that we would have to move across thousands of miles via powerlines. And an awful lot of energy is lost in powerlines at short distance, at ultra long distances it would be even worse. The only way to solve this would be to develop a room temprature super conductor.


I never said anything about solar at the equator, just in arid regions, which are usually located around ~30 degrees from the equator (it's a Hadley cell thing). These regions are often fairly close to large population centers- the Sahara is just south of Europe, for example, and the western USA/Mexio is quite arid as well. Needless to say, that electricity still has to transmitted over a long distance, which is problematic, and a room-temperature superconductor would be very helpful in that regard.


Solar in colder climates would be uneconomical, not because it wouldn't enough, but because it would produces energy at variable levels. A national grid needs a steady and reliable flow in order to work, otherwise you get powercuts. Even with storage your still going to get periods of low productivity due to bad weather, with would play hell with the economy and peoples standard of living. Solar in colder countries is fine for home use, but it is not pratical for national power generation.


Which is why the system should be designed with the flexibility to respond to bad weather and such. One area can have poor weather and another only a relatively short distance away could have acceptable weather.

The degree to which solar power can supply electricity to a certain region needs to be determined mathematically using actual data.


Also while you could improve efficency, its offen far too expensive for ordinary people to afford in the short-term. The only way you could acheive it would be with government funding.

Technology development occurs without things becoming mega-expensive to the ordinary person, and without incurring gigantic amounts of government funding (it won't help anyway; it's like the adage of having a baby every month for nine months by making nine women pregnant). This sort of development is occuring right now- and has been occuring constantly, practically throughout history. A refrigerator or television set manufactured today is most likely more efficient, as well as more capable and more inexpensive, than one made 40 years ago. Obviously there are physical limits, but that doesn't mean that current appliances can't be improved.

[exostrike]

Technology development occurs without things becoming mega-expensive to the ordinary person, and without incurring gigantic amounts of government funding (it won't help anyway; it's like the adage of having a baby every month for nine months by making nine women pregnant). This sort of development is occuring right now- and has been occuring constantly, practically throughout history. A refrigerator or television set manufactured today is most likely more efficient, as well as more capable and more inexpensive, than one made 40 years ago. Obviously there are physical limits, but that doesn't mean that current appliances can't be improved.

But this runs into the other problem of resource depletion. Most modern products aren't build for modification so to improve them we have to replace them. This leads to a increase in resource consumption and less resources for the future.

[RD-701]

But:

1. Products break, wear down, fail, etc, so there's a replacement cycle in place anyway (people are still out there buying TVs, refrigerators, microwave ovens, etc. There's demand anyway, it's just fortunate that products are constantly improving).

2. Recycling dictates that not all resources used by industry comes from non-sustainable sources (discarded products have to go somewhere, and not all of that is wasted, even when the efficiency of the recycling technology at hand is fairly low).

3. There's a cut-off point between the cost of putting in place a new system (more efficient), and the upkeep/constant cost of the older system (less efficient). This phenomenon is present in a very wide variety of cases.

4. Sometimes engineering for higher efficiency means engineering for a longer product life and thus a reduced replacement rate (this ties into #1 and #3). If I own a product with a design life of 2 years, and I buy a replacement product with a design life of 5 years, it's money well spent- I've saved costs in the future (over 20 years, the more advanced item will have to be replaced 2-3 times less than the less advanced one- which is less strain resource-wise).

[transcend]

there is an unlimited supply of energy in the ocean and in geothermal.. it is no more of a problem to obtain then oil is.. in fact we have all the technology we need to go totally renewable.. all the rest about how we need oil is propaganda.. nothing more..

Wind: you would have to cover entire countries with them to provide enough energy... < not out in the ocean.. and you don't need that much of an area..
Solar: Large sections of the world are too cloudy for them to be effecient.. < solar can work even on cloudy days
Wave: The salt corrodes the metal.. < then use plastic..
Bio: takes too much land out of food production which is going to be hit heavily by climate change.. < then use algea or grass
Geo-thermal: undeveloped and risks volcanos.. < not so.. we have the technology and there is no more risk then drilling an oil well


a 100 square mile 'wave power' farm could supply the entire united states ..


http://youtu.be/RM43WEeHoMs

[exostrike]

There is one really big problem with Wave power we havn't looked at, environemntal damage. wave of tridal power plants would have massive impact on coast environment (since it is easier to transport the energy to the national grid if its close to the shore) not just by their presense but also the infrastructure needed to mantain them. Also as we've pointed out these ideas of a single power plant supply entire countries doesn't work due to the energy cost of transportation.

How about a beatiful tidal estuary ruined by putting a concreate tidal power plant across it. This is the big downside with these massive instalations, they will have a massive effect on the local environment, igniting massive resistance from local resisidents.

[transcend]

how about putting them out in the ocean.. it isn't that hard to transport the energy.. or store it as hydrogen.. it is not a big problem..


http://youtu.be/JW6NFPhrhWA

out in the ocean they could actually create habitat for marine life..

[exostrike]

up to 30% of energy can be lost in long distance tranmission lines, depending on voltage and current. This loss (for the most part) cannot be prevented. 30% of national energy consumption would require even larger off-shore energy plants.

The idea of producing energy as hydrogen to be shipped to the main land is impratical, bad weather or accidents would cripple the national grid. Such a system would make firms unwilling to expand production if they can not be sure of eletricity supplies.

[RD-701]

Accidents can also cripple the supply of fossil fuels. We still use them though, because a failed oil rig or coal mine doesn't translate to a deadly proportion of the supply being cut off. Redundancy is key.

[exostrike]

Accidents can also cripple the supply of fossil fuels. We still use them though, because a failed oil rig or coal mine doesn't translate to a deadly proportion of the supply being cut off. Redundancy is key.

Yes, but with fossil fuels there is a back log of processed products and national reserves. A fully electric system (wind electricty generation to the national grid and directly to people's electric cars) is more at risk of a major and cascading breakdown than the traditional system. at least in a fossil fuel system there is enough of a division to ensure that a problem with supply doesn't automatically hurt provision.

[transcend]

hydrogen can be stored and is clean and efficent.. in fact it can be made right on the spot with ocean power.. current powerlines already run long distances.. it is not new technology.. and oil rigs are placed all over the globe and already survive the ocean storms .. it is not new either.. in fact ocean technology has been demonstrated to work.. further, oil is ugly anywhere.. and oil rigs are placed right off shore in places like long beach.. o'boy what a tourist attraction..


http://youtu.be/T60V7OegGes

here are some working power generators
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/218.jpg
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/219.jpg
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/220.jpg
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/221.jpg

further, off shore wind farms are working too..

http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/222.jpg

http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/223.jpg
now lets talk about why we cannot afford to continue to use oil..


oil spills
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/224.jpg


oil wars

http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/225.jpg

unstable politics
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/226.jpg


air poluution
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/227.jpg

global warming

http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/228.jpg

endangered wildlife
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/229.jpg

stink..
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2012/06/230.jpg

[exostrike]

However there is a big problem with you suggested argument that moving away from oil will improve the world situation while the developed world may have the infrastructure and money to move from oil consumption to hydrogen/electric via renewables, the developing world certainly isn't.

Many places in Africa and Asia lack the national grids or transport network to be able to transport eletricty from the sea to the interior, or the road network to transport hydrogen to fuel cars. While they may be able to developed the requirements (given time and money), there would also be major reluctance to transfer to the new technolgy, mainly due to cost of maintenance and replacements compared to petrol vechiles and the cost people would have already gone to aquire them. More developed developing countries like China and India also would have problems moving to electric vechiles due to their existing power requirements overwhelming their national grids. Put electric cars on top of that and its becomes unworkable. The up shot is that sections of the developing world would be unlikely to give up on petrol vechiles for a great while.

A further hindurance to developing world uptake would be the economic consequences of the developing world moving to eletric. A major reduction in petrol consumption would lead to a collaspe in production from oil producting countries as profits crash and feilds are closed. World wide prices would actually go up since supply would fall faster than demand, this hits the petrol dependent developing economies the hardest, leading to a collaspe in their already poor growth rates. This would have an effect on already unstable poltical situations (especially in africa), leading to civil unrest and possible civil wars. So your suggestion that moving away from oil could improve world politices may be incorrect.

[transcend]

bull****

the only people who are going to suffer are people in the oil business who always want more profits for themselves and don't give a damn about the real costs to everyone else
the demand is far exceeding the supply and that is why you have 4$ a gallon for gas and wars for oil..
and people are dying in africa right now in places like dufar because of oil wars.. they were doing fine without oil not to long ago..
shell is currently destroying ecosystems in africa..
it is always, 'yea but' with you guys who defend oil..


this is what is really happening in africa

Villagers from the oil rich Niger delta region are suing oil giant Shell for negligence at the International Court of Justice in The Hague. They claim that poor maintenance by Shell led to a series of catastrophic environmental disasters which destroyed local livelihoods
African villagers sue Shell over environmental degradation (http://southasia.oneworld.net/globalheadlines/african-villagers-sue-shell-over-environmental-degradation/)


solar
an area the size of the grounds of a nuclear facility would produce the same amount of power
1% of the mojave desert could power los angeles

http://youtu.be/0tWlP0knKQU
this generator has already been built in spain and demontrated to be cost competitive


wind
an advanced wind turbine can produce as much energy as an oil well
ocean
a square about 100 miles on a side, or about the area of greater los angeles
could power the united states
4 could power the world.. OP works and it works right now!
it is an industry that would create jobs right now.
if it is brought into mass production it will surpass fossil fuels as an economic engine.. What it won't do is make a monopoly for the greedy few..
it would bring us out of the depression right now!

geothermal
iceland has a plan to eliminate fossil fuel entirely using mainly geothermal
it is an energy source that is potentially unlimited using modern drilling technology



without subsidizes nuclear power is dead.. it is not cost effective and very dangerous
without subsidizes coal will not be less expensive then renewables
and there is no such thing as clean coal
oil production is becoming too expensive because the demand exceeds the supply
and there are too many hidden costs
the oil and gas lobby is the most powerful in washington and feeds goverment corruption
without the hundreds of billions that tax payers subsidize the auto & fossil fuel industry with
things would soon change.. it is only a matter of time,
fossil fuels are going the way of the dinosuar

[akgeff]

"The Na’vi are part of Eywa. Eywa is a planet wide sentient biosphere where all the life on Pandora is her “body.” This phenomena floats around in the void without any other desire but to be what it has evolved into being. Its body, and the Na’vi, is not being “held back” because there is no reason to be what it is not. The Na’vi live and die in this relationship doing what is natural for them. You can’t impose your human entities of religion, philosophy, psychology or developmental drive onto this alien system because they aren’t in your reality."

I've been thinking of Eywa as a biological version of "Cloud" computing.

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

^ that polar bear picture makes me sad...very sad only. :nsad:



i watched this internet video ad for making your own solar-power plant and compact wind turbine in your own yard, cutting your electric costs by 50-75% in the first month, then by the second month, your surplus energy is used by the power company and they pay you. if everyone did this, wow...

[SpacePhoenix]

Renewables aren't reliable enough, they still need backup powerplants which will be either coal, gas, oil or nuclear as they have got to be able increase generation capacity at short notice when demand spikes. Hydrogen is not really viable as you need energy to make it.

The idea of using **** for fuel reminds me of the film Mad Max 3

[exostrike]

Renewables aren't reliable enough, they still need backup powerplants which will be either coal, gas, oil or nuclear as they have got to be able increase generation capacity at short notice when demand spikes. Hydrogen is not really viable as you need energy to make it.

The idea of using **** for fuel reminds me of the film Mad Max 3

This is the big problem I see with an entirely renewable power grid, its inablity to rapidly increase supply since all of the arrays are dependent on the sun's yearly output. A number of back up powerplants, personally I'd settle for nuclear, would be a sensible step to ensure that demand can give satisfied, even in a time of crisis.