Americans and their guns- a culture learning thread

[NAvi_warrior64]

I first off i want to say, this thread is purely a learning experience, I'm not judgmental nor do i condemn was is a part of their culture. I simply want an insider's explanation for me to understand why some Americans hold guns at high esteem.

As some of you know I live in Canada and some what in Ireland and both countries have strict laws when it comes to owning firearms or selling firearms. reducing them to hunting rifles and pistols (pistols in Canada? not really) for hunting deer and such. With this fact I can offer an unique point of view when comes to firearms. Guns are made to kill, nothing more, nothing less, they are designed to kill not to be use as bottle cap openers and mostly definitely not use as toys. I know most Americans understand this, but here's what i don't understand.

In openly selling firearms aren't you encouraging acts of violence? I know the saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" Yeah but guns sure do help that process. What i don't understand is why do some Americans treat the use of guns as a recreation activity? training themselves to kill. I guess its because humans as species is flawed, ever since we discover the killing power of rock and stone violence always attracted us, and we were always curious about the weapons used in acts of violence.

I understand your founding fathers intends back when the founding of the U.S, you were scared of invasion from an outside force or scared that the government might take your rights away from you. but in arming yourselves you made yourselves afraid of everything paranoid even. that every household should have a firearm because you afraid of your neighbor breaking in, but then your neighbor sees you arming yourself and sees it as a sign of distrust and then he arms himself and so the cycle of distrust and fear goes on.

anyway, this is an outsider's point of view who is seeking answers to questions that people don't really ask. so for anyway American out there who is willing to explain why in a good manner, please i only wish to understand.


P.S i know this might be offense to some but i have to tell this joke me and my friends made up about the Second Amendment:


Thomas Jefferson: "Alright the first Amendment is done, Now for the second".

George Washington: "right the second one hmm....(thinks) I got it!! the right of the people to keep and bear arms"

Thomas Jefferson:"arms?"

George Washington: "yes, everyone should have the right to keep and bear two human arms attract to their body"

Thomas Jefferson: " don't you think the people might misunderstand that as the right to keep to guns?"

George Washington: "Nonsense! if we meant the right to keep guns, we would've said the right to bear "fire"arms, duh even you should know that Tom."

and so the 2nd Amendment was born.

[Jason6]

Lord, I don't even want to touch this. I am very strong supporter of my second amendment and rights. Your points are and views are WAY off. A gun is tool, nothing more, nothing less. In the wrong hands it is dangerous weapon. It is a proven fact that MORE guns equal less crime ;). Everyone should have right to defend themselves and their property. All the crap you see in media is criminals that get their guns illegally 99% of time. It's very rare that here a crime with gun by a responsible gun owner that bought gun legally ;). It really angers me to no end, ANYTHING is a weapon. I could get in my truck and go run down and kill several people right now. Should we ban cars now to? lol. I could grab baseball bat and kill people, ban them to? lol..

I CHOOSE TO BE A GUN OWNER, NOT A VICTIM! ;)

[kkg14]

First of all, I would just like to say that that joke at the end sounds suspiciously close to one I saw on Family Guy, except in the show, the founding fathers meant the arms of a bear. Anyway, I can answer your question. It goes way back to the days when America had just won its independence from Britain and to the original idea of independence that the country was founded on. Since people believed in the right to own property, they also believed in the right to defend that property, and in the absence of law enforcement, that duty fell to the property owner. Since most property owners had only themselves to rely on, they needed as much defense power as they could afford, and for most people, this meant guns. A person who was a good shot with a gun could defend themselves, their family, and their property without having to call on authority figures such as the local or federal government for help. So guns became a symbol of independence.

[transcend]

i think it had something to do with john wayne movies.. seriously as an american i can say that americans are into all kinds guns, bigger guns, more guns, old guns, new guns, spare guns, guns that are short, guns that are long, especialy guns with more fire power, and that is just the guns..then there is the bombs.. and the tanks.. and the jet fighters and the battle ships.. yep.. we have so many the government buys them off us with sandwiches.. but thats ok.. the gun makes are making more.. so don't talk bad about guns because that is just plain un-american.. and we like to sell them to both sides of a war too.. like iraq and iran.. with drug money from south america.. maybe a little mustard gas too.. or even better is selling f16s to both india and pakistan when they are on the verge of civil war... but you know.. thats their problem.. after all its people that kill each other and not the guns.. and besides, we get bad tech support on the phone in exchange..

[Jason6]

this is WHAT the second amendment is all about. NOT just right to own guns but about OUR RIGHTS as Americans to defend ourselves and family. It's sad people call themselves Americans and yet bend over and let our government render us helpless to them and criminals. The intelligence of people these days is at all time low.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

[Tsyal Makto]

I got no problem with guns, but I do believe in reasonable limits (really, what civilian needs something like an M60?). I agree that they're tools.

The real problem that leads to more violence in a society is wealth inequality. It's also a proven fact that as wealth disparity increases in a society, so do rates of violent crimes, homocides, and suicides. Switzerland is proof of this. They have an even higher guns-per-capita rate that the United States, but crime rates are much lower. Why? Because it is a more equal society. My favorite radio host, Thom Hartmann, likes to mention a good book about this, called "The Spirit Level." I'm thinking of getting it.

Amazon.com: The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger (9781608190362): Richard Wilkinson, Kate Pickett: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Level-Equality-Societies-Stronger/dp/1608190366)

[NAvi_warrior64]

thanks to all who took the time out of their day to explain why this is apart of their culture in an open and good manner without turning this topic into debate. im not here to judge you for what makes you unique. i simply wanted to understand your reasoning behind it, i love learning about another cultures and i think everyone should learn about different cultures because it prevents outrages stereotypes being told by the media or society and you get to know the people for who they are. Anyway like i said this is a learning experience not a debate,i know if i don't ask the questions i'll never know the answers, think of it as an interview.as such i have one more question:

you say firearms are tools for self defense that i can understand, but do you think openly selling firearms to its citizens in order to defend themselves and to ensure safety for each other was a good decision? if so does it help to enforce law and order? to ensure a safe environment for your loved ones? how does it impact on crime rates?

i compared the murder rates of Canada and the United States, one country who allows the owning and selling of firearms , one who has very strict gun control.

in 2009 610 murders were committed in Canada, 30% of which was by firearm.

in 2009 13,636 murders were committed in the United States, 70% of which was by firearm.

sources: Expanded Homicide Data Table 8 - Crime in the United States 2009 (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html)

Homicide offences, number and rate, by province and territory (http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal12a-eng.htm)

Crime in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada) (if you call it a source)

[Jason6]

thanks to all who took the time out of their day to explain why this is apart of their culture in an open and good manner without turning this topic into debate. im not here to judge you for what makes you unique. i simply wanted to understand your reasoning behind it, i love learning about another cultures and i think everyone should learn about different cultures because it prevents outrages stereotypes being told by the media or society and you get to know the people for who they are. Anyway like i said this is a learning experience not a debate,i know if i don't ask the questions i'll never know the answers, think of it as an interview.as such i have one more question:

you say firearms are tools for self defense that i can understand, but do you think openly selling firearms to its citizens in order to defend themselves and to ensure safety for each other was a good decision? if so does it help to enforce law and order? to ensure a safe environment for your loved ones? how does it impact on crime rates?

i compared the murder rates of Canada and the United States, one country who allows the owning and selling of firearms , one who has very strict gun control.

in 2009 610 murders were committed in Canada, 30% of which was by firearm.

in 2009 13,636 murders were committed in the United States, 70% of which was by firearm.

sources: Expanded Homicide Data Table 8 - Crime in the United States 2009 (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html)

Homicide offences, number and rate, by province and territory (http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal12a-eng.htm)

Crime in Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada) (if you call it a source)




The thing is not really selling guns to people "freely". Some states are stricter then others but to buy new gun have to pass FBI background check and can be waiting period depending. It's not like you just walk in and grab it off shelf, pay for it and walk out haha.. If you have ANY past crimes or anything you not walking out with that gun. The "gun crimes" you see and hear about are all illegal guns that criminals have always and will always get. The fact is all these so called "gun control" laws they keep trying to pass. Are only hurting responsible law abiding citzens such as myself. NOT the criminals. See the media/government don't want you to know the truth but in states where Concealed carry is open and gun laws less strict, the crime rate a lot less then what it is in states where have more "Gun Control" laws.. Criminals are not dumb and think twice if know they have to worry about that person thinking about raping or robbing having a gun ;) . The crimes you are seeing in those statistics are 99% drug,gang,and other criminal related things with illegal guns, NOT guns bought legally.

[visualizer]

From what I understand, people from outside the US actually fear firearms more than Americans. Some people I've met overseas are actually afraid to go near one, let alone touch one (even though it's unloaded and all that). Going out to shoot is viewed as a recreational activity and not "training to kill". Many Americans are perfectly fine talking about their guns, showing them to friends, etc. A while back, I was as equally as baffled as you were how people hated them so much. Only recently have I talked to people from across the pond about the reasons. My consensus is that we've grown up with different views, so we'll probably never see eye-to-eye on that subject. I try to not argue for or against guns any more, because I'm not sure what is right or wrong. All I know is that I'm comfortable with them around.

[transcend]

mostly americans are into gun porn..


http://youtu.be/bpFDHO-tqUY

and presidents who shoot their friends in the face..


http://youtu.be/sPoXm_H0F0o


and we all know someone who has a relative who knows someone who heard about a mad mad who attacked somebody.. usually it was the mail man.. we even have a phrase for it.. its called going ''postal''..

yep.. we get gun racks for our trucks so we can drive around with our guns on display to the whole world.. and we like movies like Rambo... dat dat dat.. bang bang.. rada da da... bang.. rat tat tat..


http://youtu.be/T7GyYrJMd4s

and as americans we are going to keep the whole world safe by selling EVERYONE a gun.. ;)

[Jason6]

mostly americans are into gun porn..


http://youtu.be/bpFDHO-tqUY

and presidents who shoot their friends in the face..


http://youtu.be/sPoXm_H0F0o


and we all know someone who has a relative who knows someone who heard about a mad mad who attacked somebody.. usually it was the mail man.. we even have a phrase for it.. its called going ''postal''..

yep.. we get gun racks for our trucks so we can drive around with our guns on display to the whole world.. and we like movies like Rambo... dat dat dat.. bang bang.. rada da da... bang.. rat tat tat..


http://youtu.be/T7GyYrJMd4s

and as americans we are going to keep the whole world safe by selling EVERYONE a gun.. ;)


You are very misinformed sadly. Is their bad out their?, of course their is. Typical "kool aid" drinker. Let's blame violent movies,games etc when the fact is pretty much all of us, myself included have grown up with that and do you see us going out shooting everyone? lol.. NO, this one of many things that makes me so sick about this country and what has become. NO ONE TAKES BLAME FOR THEIR ACTIONS ANYMORE!. It's always, "O guns are bad, "The violent video games", "The violent movies".. I will tell you a little secret, you are in a lot more danger driving to work in your car everyday then are of being killed by gun ;) . Let's keep that between us because the liberal media and politicians don't want you to know that.. They never worried about the facts and sadly too many Americans have become nothing but sheep. The videos posted above while many, myself included agree dangerous and stupid. They have NOTHING to do with any crime rate here. The media and our wonderful government wants everyone to think that just because people own guns that they want to use them on someone every and any chance they get when that couldn't be further from the truth.

I will leave it with a quote that couldn't be more true , sadly some still just don't seem to understand it.


​ BLAMING GUNS FOR VIOLENCE IS LIKE BLAMING SPOONS FOR ROSIE O'DONNELL'S FAT ***!

[NAvi_warrior64]

again, thank you for the explanations you have given me, it was an eye-opener.

[transcend]

""I will tell you a little secret, you are in a lot more danger driving to work in your car everyday then are of being killed by gun ""'

.. so why do you need one? i have no delusions that guns will ever be banned.. don't worry you'll always have a gun.. what is the saying.. if guns are outlawed only jason will have a gun.. yea right.. lol.. americans love guns too much and the gun makers are making too much money for them to ever go away.. but, i find it ironic that the big brave ones are the ones that need to protect themselves with guns..

[Jason6]

""I will tell you a little secret, you are in a lot more danger driving to work in your car everyday then are of being killed by gun ""'

.. so why do you need one? i have no delusions that guns will ever be banned.. don't worry you'll always have a gun.. what is the saying.. if guns are outlawed only jason will have a gun.. yea right.. lol.. americans love guns too much and the gun makers are making too much money for them to ever go away.. but, i find it ironic that the big brave ones are the ones that need to protect themselves with guns..


Yea because I am sure sure the person about to rob your home or rape some innocent person is gonna stop and think.. "Hmm you know what, I would be so much more of a man and braver if didn't have a gun" LMFAO.. Use your head, it's not living in fear by any means. It's called having the means to protect yourself,your family,and home ;) . People really need to use their head more these days ;)



I am done though, go anymore gonna be worse lol. Can't reach through to some people sadly.

[Eternal Enigma]

Not just anyone can buy a gun. It's not like as an American citizen you just walk in, throw down some cash, and walk out with an AK-47. It doesn't work like that. For one there's lots of paperwork to fill out and you are put under the microscope. In some states if you so much as have a parking ticket you're not eligible to purchase a firearm. Most people have something on their record that disqualifies them. There's a probationary hold placed on you before you can even have your firearm that can be 6 months or up-to 2 years in some states. If you purchase more than one gun at a time you're immediately flagged. From the outside looking in I'm sure it looks like buying a gun is as easy as buying a candy bar, but that's not how it really is. By the time you get done purchasing just one gun the people you buy it from will know the name of the janitor at the hospital you were born at. They get all of your information.

Most of the guns across the United States were acquired decades ago or have been passed down in families. I have a shotgun my great grandfather owned. I'm 27 years old and it hasn't been shot since I have existed. It's been in the closet. The only reason we keep guns like these is to have something that connects us with our family history. My great grandfather has been dead and gone well before my time. I don't have any photos of my great grandfather, but the one thing I do have is a gun he owned and that's something I have that I can hold onto that connects me to him.


http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2011/08/55.png


These are the guns I own. (From the top down: #1. Long Tom 12 gauge single shot break over, #2. Winchester 22 simi-automatic rifle, #3. Winchester 12 gauge long barrel, #4. Winchester 12 gauge police edition known as a "defender," #5. Sears 22 bolt action single shot, #6. Winchester 22 pump action, #7. A stainless 9mm.) None of them were purchased after 1980 (excluding the defender). Out of those guns 4 of them are to be passed down through the family and are not to be used. That top one (#1.) is my great grandfather's gun. That second to the bottom rifle (#5.) was purchased out of a Sears catalog for $10 in the 1920's by my grandfather when he was 9 years old. The 12 gauge (#3) is my father's shotgun. That's why I keep those guns because of the history behind them and that's the only reason I have as many as I have. Each generation inherits the past generations guns and then purchases their own and when it's time to pass it on to their children their children will get all of the guns and purchase their own.


The defender...

http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2011/08/56.png


The defender is mine. It's the newest and was traded to me for a 22 pistol. For home defense this is all I need and guess what? It sits in the closet collecting dust, but it's there if I need it. I don't go out shooting it or any of my other guns like some idiot. Gun owners are very mindful about gun safety and I'm not talking about gang banging punks or bored rednecks.

For most reasonable and responsible Americans guns are for home defense; nothing more nothing less. Just about every American house hold has a gun in the closet collecting dust and for millions of Americans that's all it'll ever be. Guns were originally designed for hunting and are now used for personal protection, but as with anything you have people who will abuse such a thing.


Examples:

Bill Gates founded Microsoft and invented Windows. Computers are made to enhance our lives and if utilized correctly they can, but there are some who use computers to hack into networks or create viruses to destroy property. Google Inc. recieves more than 15 million hack attempts per day and there are thousands of new viruses, trojans, and spyware uploaded to the internet every hour.

Henry Ford mass produced a line of automobiles and when used correctly they can be used to enhance our lives, but there are some who abuse that privilege as well. Drinking and driving being at the top of the list.

Some idiot invented cell phones, which is a good idea for if you breakdown and need to call someone, but now billions of people around the world are becoming mindless zombies who stare at a 2x3 screen texting in short hand and making face to face communication increasingly difficult. There are more deaths in the United States caused by texting related crashes than drunk drivers or shootings combined.

See what I mean?

The fact that something exists doesn't mean it works to create something bad. Something bad has to exist first in order to use that which was created and do evil things with it.

The fact is, if you went around collecting up all the guns to melt them down; criminals would still find the means for creating or acquiring fire power. You can't take the people's ability to protect themselves away because if you do then you have a situation where the criminals have all of the power and all of the control. Criminals always have high powered fully automatic weaponry and the most any citizen ever has is a pistol or a shotgun collecting dust in the closet.

Criminals in countries with gun control laws have guns.

If you're sitting in your home and five men with guns bust through the door right now, you're screwed.... and you do what? Put your hands up in front of you as if that's going to stop a bullet? What a way to defend yourself and what a horrible way to die... knowing you couldn't do anything to prevent it.

Me.... I've got a realistic way to adequately defend myself and if I'm going to die I'm going to die defending myself on equal terms or at least as equal as possible. I'm not going to have people come into my house to steal from me or kill my family in front of me and there's nothing I can do about it. Screw that! They may have automatic weapons and I may only have a few shotguns and a pistol, but that's better than nothing.

I'm a good person and would never use a gun unless I was forced to do so. I haven't even shot half the guns I have they're all just sitting in the closet collecting dust, but they're here for in the event someone is here to do me or my family harm FORCING ME to PROTECT my FAMILY or MYSELF.

California has stricter gun laws than the state of Texas - (the state I live in), but California has more gun violence and is famous for having the worst gangs in the United States.


North Hollywood shootout
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cMIVNntHs


Average citizens have got to have some way of protecting themselves against criminals. I'm sorry, but talking doesn't work especially if the criminal's intent is to kill you anyways. I'm sure people would like to believe that if such high powered weapons weren't being sold what happened in that video wouldn't have happened. These are CRIMINALS they don't buy guns they get them by stealing them or from outside the country. Hell, I could probably get a rocket launcher from Afghanistan there's bound to be a few million of those just lying around. Instead of implying that the United States is the cause of all the issues all someone has to do is look at where most of all the violence really is... Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran... where more guns and bullets exist than anywhere else on the face of the Earth.

Here's a better video of that shootout with more information. I didn't post it like normal because there's an inappropriate video that shows up in the suggestions. *rolls eyes*

Bank Of America Robbery - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7JSTRawEPE&feature=related)

As for the people who use guns for recreation... those are idiots who have little to no consideration for the safety of others. You have that in every group!

Home invasions are on the rise in the United States where a group of people converge on your home fully armed with either guns or knives with the intent to kill you and your family to steal what you have so they can sell it and buy more drugs. If you do not have a means to properly protect yourself you die and so does your family. That's the real world.

Did you see or hear about the man who survived a home invasion that made the world news? He was tide up had to listen to his two daughters and wife scream as they were raped then had gasoline poured on them and they were set on fire. Oh, and by the way... the man didn't believe in owning a gun, but he's since changed his mind.

Animals protect themselves... they have teeth, claws, and poisons... we have fists, knives, and guns.

[Aihwa]

(really, what civilian needs something like an M60?).

Somebody who wants to shoot an M60?

[_Omaticaya_]

Awesome collection right there Eternal! :nwink: Yeah, I'ma go for the rethorical, it's not the gun, it's the gunner... You don't even need to have a gun to be a killer by the way, a knife could do... and bare hands do too... What I mean is, it's not only about guns, a criminal, or killer, whatever, is evil and kills right, regardless of the weapon, and how he/she got the weapon. Still, you have a point Warrior64, I believe too, that if something is Harder, to get, then it might, slighty make it better, like the issue of selling alchool to kids. Here in Italy for example, you wouldn't believe how many things an underage teen can do: Get drinks, smoke, bet, whatever, all things that by law, are illegal if you're under 18, still, no one gives a crap, just happens, and even airsoft rifles for example, or knives, are easy to buy here, even if you're a kid. All the shop owners want is their money, they don't think that maybe that 15 year old could hurt himself, or others with a wepaon, or those drunk kids will crash their moped... all this stuff that's in the news every week. But even so... Hate to say this, but sh!t happens... And even if you're right, we can't really change the law, we can just be the good guys, and hope for the best, hope that bad things stop happening... But they won't.

[Ja'k Dawsiin]

Somebody who wants to shoot an M60?

29719


i would like to shoot an M-60 7.62mm machine gun...at the countless homicide bombers,terrorists,ponzi-scheme rich criminals,power-mad dictators like kim jong ILL,child-molester priests,murderers of every ilk and nationality,life-time politicals who keep NONE of their 'promises',every surviving member of nazi third reich,all zombies,all red-china gov't officials responsible for Tianammen Square,those taliban barbarians who fired RPG-7s at 3,000 y/o Budda statues carved out of the afghan mountains,let's just say a whole lot of 'people',lol,and last but certainly not least,that farmer dude who was beating up that defenseless cow in the animal-cruelty/rights video. i'm coming for you,a**hole...



wow,talk about the one subject,guns,that brings up every divisive view in the arena,politics,morality,religion,personal rights,constitutional rule,etc,etc,etc......*yikes*






the gun culture led to this...hell yeahhh!!!! old west,baby:)

29720

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

Somebody who wants to shoot an M60?

Me! I want to shoot the "PIG". :an-wink:

[Palulukan_Taronyu]

I'd rather have them and not need then need them and not have them.

Guns are incredible machines. They demand respect. You do not treat a gun with respect "You will shoot your eye out".

Nothing wrong with the machine. It's always the operators fault.

Gun laws do nothing but hurt those who intend to abide by them. I feel bad for all those states who have insane gun restrictions. Gives the citizens one less means of self defense.

Criminals break laws that is why they are criminals. They will always get the weapons they need to do bad.

I support gun right's and responsible owners 100%.