Humanties Technological Level.

[Imperius Dictatio]

Out of curiosity how many of you were dissapointed with the level of technology shown in the movie?
Also in the ****ty application of technology we actually see?

For example....They have the technology to create an Avatar....An honest to God, Artificial human-hybrid alien.... Which it's original use was supposed to be MINING.

And they couldnt pony up to give the RDA's Pandora Personnel Gene-Treatments that would allow them to breathe the planets air?

Also why the hell do humans use Anti-Matter for ground side power generation on earth?
In an energy crisis? ****ing hell! They have acsess to space! Park some giant ****ing mirrors up in orbit and send that juicy, free and nearly limitless supply of energy down!

Earths suffering from over population? You have Mars! Terraform it! Or settle on the moon!
Or start pumping out Islands!

This goes back to to the Avatar thing.
If they have the abilty to merge human and alien DNA and flash-grow the critter in a few years whats from stopping them on re-populating earth with plants and animals again?
Seriously with that level of tech you could gene-engineer a ****ing bacteria to start eating away at the pollution and convert it into something harmless.


And furthermore where the hell is all the good technology? Hells Bells you want to know how small computers should be and just how widespread they would be? Not to mention just how frigging powerful.

Also what about cybernetics and nanotech?!

Argh!
Damn you Hollywood and your stagnant view of the future!

[tm20]

-they did colonise the moon and mars.
-i dont think the Avatars were meant for mining but to make it easier to do field work on Pandora
-for others questions you should read the activist's survival guide (interesting stuff) and maybe even the science of Avatar (i haven't read this but it's by an author who writes alot of science stuff so it would have alot of legitimate facts about the world in 2154, the technology and whatever you want to know about)

[Imperius Dictatio]

1. Never heard any mention of this. More details?
2. I remember reading that the idea was to use them for mining given they could breath the air. The trouble was the things were so damned expensive that it was unfeasible, so they turned the program into a large science project.
3. Well of course a lot of the human tech shown in the setting is feasible. Most of the more advanced stuff shown is probably 15-20 years off.
For a setting placed nearly 140 years in the future it's not impressive at all.

[tm20]

the stuff about the moon and mars is in the activists survival guide. or you maybe able to read more at Avatar wiki

[Imperius Dictatio]

The only mention of Mars is that it's heavily colonized and is a vacation spot....Seriously if they could 'Heavily Colonize' a lifeless hunk of red rock they cant fix up earth?

[mIDNASsYSoP]

I got the same thinking already a few months earlier: They are not only able to create a Na'vi / Human hybrid, they even are able to remotely control it over a wide area! But they are still using ballistic weapons.

The Computers are maybe more powerful and advanced there, we didn't see a benchmark - program running somewhere but these displays are looking good.

[Scott]

The only mention of Mars is that it's heavily colonized and is a vacation spot....Seriously if they could 'Heavily Colonize' a lifeless hunk of red rock they cant fix up earth?

It's not a question of fixing up, it's the tremendous demand for extremely limited resources that has humanity on the brink. Lack of conservation and continent wide urban sprawl has left manufacturing food(a protein paste like substance) the only way to feed the billions of humans on the planet. So on top of an already huge energy crisis, you can add food production to the list to why Earth needs Pandora's energy resources so badly.

My guess is the wealthy still eat real food and take fancy vacations to Mars.

[mIDNASsYSoP]

Why they don't build Photovoltaic - Parks or something similar? We can already feed civil houses here in GER with this Tech for a reasonable price and we now just get a "Wirkungsgrad" (don't know what is that in english - efficiency level?) of 17% - 100 years later, we should be able to bring maybe 30% or more!

I think, I look too much Star Trek, there, the future is shown so bright, you should wear shades....

[Scott]

Why they don't build Photovoltaic - Parks or something similar? We can already feed civil houses here in GER with this Tech for a reasonable price and we now just get a "Wirkungsgrad" (don't know what is that in english - efficiency level?) of 17% - 100 years later, we should be able to bring maybe 30% or more!

I think, I look too much Star Trek, there, the future is shown so bright, you should wear shades....

You are absolutely correct. I guess from a fiction stand point it was too little, too late. Lastly, for us to travel to other nearby stars like Alpha Centauri, we will need to be culturally and technologically more like Star Trek then how humans are portrayed in Avatar.

[Tsyal Makto]

Selective technological advancement, think the Fallout universe. Some technologies advance, others stagnate. They have the ability to travel at 0.7c, but at the same time still fly pretty conventional aircraft. Just like the Fallout universe was pumping out T-51b suits, while still typing on CRT computers.

[Imperius Dictatio]

It's not a question of fixing up, it's the tremendous demand for extremely limited resources that has humanity on the brink. Lack of conservation and continent wide urban sprawl has left manufacturing food(a protein paste like substance) the only way to feed the billions of humans on the planet. So on top of an already huge energy crisis, you can add food production to the list to why Earth needs Pandora's energy resources so badly.

My guess is the wealthy still eat real food and take fancy vacations to Mars.

1. They have an entire solar system worth of raw and ultra-pure materials literally RIPE for the taking.
Asteroid mining in facts is more effecient and brings in higher quality raw materials then typical terra firma based mining. With the added bonus of not stripping the earth bare.
If humanity has the ****ing resources to fly to mars and terraform it enough to be platable for the Upper Crust then they have the resources to try and tidy up earth.
The only reason I can think of why they dont is pure plot fiat.

2.The Urban Sprawl could have been corrected via heavily colonizing the Astroid Belt, the Lunar-Lagrange Points, Mars and the Jovian Moons. Hell it's even possible they could have built some type of Aero-Sat colonies on frigging Venus. If they can make an Avatar they could easily modify a human to survive in Venus's upper atmosphere.

3. An energy crisis should be trivial considering they should be able to put up a hell of a lot of solar panels in orbit above earth and get a constant stream of pure solar energy that hasnt been filtered by the atomsphere.


You are absolutely correct. I guess from a fiction stand point it was too little, too late. Lastly, for us to travel to other nearby stars like Alpha Centauri, we will need to be culturally and technologically more like Star Trek then how humans are portrayed in Avatar.

We dont have to be 'culturally' like Star Trek to do anything, bunch of ***-Backwards explorers who cant get their **** in a bag. (I blame the writers.)
It also suffers in many ways from such elements like 'Tech of the Week', 'Techno-Babble', 'Pants on Head Retarded Application of Technology' and a horribly silly fear not to mention downright hatred and prejudice agaisnt folks who undergo Genetic Augmentation of any kind.


Selective technological advancement, think the Fallout universe. Some technologies advance, others stagnate. They have the ability to travel at 0.7c, but at the same time still fly pretty conventional aircraft. Just like the Fallout universe was pumping out T-51b suits, while still typing on CRT computers.

The Technology of Fallout Verse is firmly based on SCIENCE! not actual Science.
Hell the Universe breaks some of the laws of physics and laws of nature in order to work.
Fallout is 'Rule of Cool'

This on the other hand?
If we have the freaking materials,computers,technology to build a Interstellar Starship that can accelerate to 0.7 c. Then they damn sure better have something better then aircraft that could crop up in the next ten years if the goverment felt like building them.
How do you explain that kind of radical pleatue of technlogical innovation in MILITARY technology?

[Scott]

Hot damn, anger management man! If you can't carry on a conversation without spraying every sentence with profanity, don't bother, because rage means you won't bother listening to anyone but yourself anyhow.

[Imperius Dictatio]

Oh please.
Ya say three curse words and suddenly I'm pissed off.
(Well okay the Star Trek thing? Yeah I HATE Voyager. Janeway was a frigging Loony Toon who should have been clapped in Irons for a lot of the stuff she pulled during the show. Captain Zapp Brannigan is a better Captain then Janeway.)

[Scott]

Catherine Janeway was an excellent starship Captain because she got her ship and her crew home.

It's getting downright fun disagreeing with you.

[ScottWashburn]

One factor you aren't considering is the SCALE of the problem. By 2154 Earth's population is probably 20-25 billion. Even if you could ship a million people a day to off-world colonies (an enormous task in its own right, to say nothing of the problems of housing and feeding them once they get there) that still wouldn't match the natural population growth on Earth. It's easy to say: well, just build colonies on the moon or Venus and terraform Mars or fix Earth's problems. Easy to say, much harder to do--especially when you have to keep Earth's population not just alive, but content while you are doing it. The Pandora expedition, as immense as it is, would still be child's play by comparison. Probably why they went that route.

['upxare]

Interesthing discussion but you guys forget to include the principles of capitalism. Its the money which artificially limits our resources (in any way) and therefore slows progress (in any way). They simply dont have the funds to clean up earth and go for the cheapest and most profitable ways to feed the population and serve the neergy needs. And as long as the population got enough food and a home with internet access, why bother to invest trillions of hard earned $$ to clean up the planet? The stakeholders wouldn't be happy about that...
Thats why I believe a society like at Star Trek would be way more efficient to cope with the challanges of this and the following centuries. Only that kind of advanced society could really get us to the stars.

[Imperius Dictatio]

Catherine Janeway was an excellent starship Captain because she got her ship and her crew home.

It's getting downright fun disagreeing with you.

She could have brought her Crew home on the very first episode with ZERO reprecussions.



One factor you aren't considering is the SCALE of the problem. By 2154 Earth's population is probably 20-25 billion. Even if you could ship a million people a day to off-world colonies (an enormous task in its own right, to say nothing of the problems of housing and feeding them once they get there) that still wouldn't match the natural population growth on Earth. It's easy to say: well, just build colonies on the moon or Venus and terraform Mars or fix Earth's problems. Easy to say, much harder to do--especially when you have to keep Earth's population not just alive, but content while you are doing it. The Pandora expedition, as immense as it is, would still be child's play by comparison. Probably why they went that route.

Yes but in the long term the Pandora missions do nothing about the problem at all.

Also the 20-25 Billion Scenario follows the study of a High Fertility Population growth pattern.
You fail to take into the possible accounts of Low Fertility (3.6 Billion humans on Earth.)
And Medium Fertility (10.8 Billion.)
You have to keep in mind that in the Western World Population growth is dropping rapidly.
And even China is going to be crashing here within a generation or two due to the cultural belief in male children are the most desired while female chinese babies are either placed into Orphanages (Where their typically adopted out of the country.) or simply aborted.
This will lead to a MASSIVE population crash.


Actually building Settlements throughout the Solar System is actually cheaper and does at least work to alleviate the problem.
This could also be enhanced with encouraging birth control as well as restrictions on children. (Personally disagree with such an idea however I'm a pragmatic soul at heart.) Actually sense you'd be putting people to work in some of the greatest engineering and terraforming measures ever seen in the Solar System this would possibly improve things.
Lots of jobs ranging from construction all the way to biology and geology.
Their would be a massive increase of Educated humans in order to meet the supply needed to help terraform places such as mars, Venus and the Jovian moons.
You'd be making places off of earth for which humans to live and even if it doesnt solve the problem over night or even solve it completely it's far better then humanity sitting on their asses on a dead homeworld.
The RDA could fund this project and even use their fleet of ships hauling in supplies from the belt.
Hells Bells they could lay down the frame-work for even BIGGER ships to meet the demands.


Interesthing discussion but you guys forget to include the principles of capitalism. Its the money which artificially limits our resources (in any way) and therefore slows progress (in any way). They simply dont have the funds to clean up earth and go for the cheapest and most profitable ways to feed the population and serve the neergy needs. And as long as the population got enough food and a home with internet access, why bother to invest trillions of hard earned $$ to clean up the planet? The stakeholders wouldn't be happy about that...
Thats why I believe a society like at Star Trek would be way more efficient to cope with the challanges of this and the following centuries. Only that kind of advanced society could really get us to the stars.

Bull**** they do.
You want to know how much money the Corps would rake in by sponsoring off-world colonies?
The New Markets they could open up?
Resources that suddenly appear?
Hells Bells once some young Corporate Turk finds out that if you plunk o Colony on a Jovian Moon you suddenly have a massive supply of HE-3 at your fingertips.
And thats not just the only thing....Asteroids that have pure materials built in them.
Orbital Infrastructure
Hell! Energy Generation alone would set a Corporation on easy street once they start plunking Solar Collectors outside the earths atmosphere and send it back down to earth.

Hell Capitalism may very well be the thing that propels us into space and opens up the wealth of the solar system to humanity.

['upxare]

Bull**** they do.
You want to know how much money the Corps would rake in by sponsoring off-world colonies?
The New Markets they could open up?
Resources that suddenly appear?
Hells Bells once some young Corporate Turk finds out that if you plunk o Colony on a Jovian Moon you suddenly have a massive supply of HE-3 at your fingertips.
And thats not just the only thing....Asteroids that have pure materials built in them.
Orbital Infrastructure
Hell! Energy Generation alone would set a Corporation on easy street once they start plunking Solar Collectors outside the earths atmosphere and send it back down to earth.

Hell Capitalism may very well be the thing that propels us into space and opens up the wealth of the solar system to humanity.




Then please exlpain me folliwing things:

- why do governments and institutions around the world scrap so many groundbreaking projects? (i.e. Orion programme, regenerative energy plants, ITER -> delayed again and again, infrastructure programs, etc

- There is Helium 3 on moon, just 380,000km away from us. A great energy source - why has there been no effort yet to get there and harvest it?

- Why it takes so long time for the private space industry to get just a SUBORBITAL craft into the skies with payload?
- Why dont we have yet assembled a spacecraft with advanced propulsion yet? There are many concepts on the table, nothing has been done with them, tough.

I could continue with so many other questions and the answer is always the same: because there is no money for it! Especially western governments are drying out financially, the longer the principles of capitalism are in place, the higher is the debt. Only an advanced economy could speed up devellopment.

[Lon]

Technically speaking we as humans lack the energy resources to travel effectively or efficiently to other nearby planets. Both Nasa and the Russian space agency are doing mock experiments where astronaut's are confined for over 500 days in a round trip experiment to Mars and back. The human body is not designed to be weightless for long periods of time, and other medical abnormalities have also been noted. It just takes too long to get to another planet using conventional spacecraft and energy sources.

[Imperius Dictatio]

Then please exlpain me folliwing things:

- why do governments and institutions around the world scrap so many groundbreaking projects? (i.e. Orion programme, regenerative energy plants, ITER -> delayed again and again, infrastructure programs, etc

- There is Helium 3 on moon, just 380,000km away from us. A great energy source - why has there been no effort yet to get there and harvest it?

- Why it takes so long time for the private space industry to get just a SUBORBITAL craft into the skies with payload?
- Why dont we have yet assembled a spacecraft with advanced propulsion yet? There are many concepts on the table, nothing has been done with them, tough.

I could continue with so many other questions and the answer is always the same: because there is no money for it! Especially western governments are drying out financially, the longer the principles of capitalism are in place, the higher is the debt. Only an advanced economy could speed up devellopment.

1. Becuase the Average Joe and Congressmen Bob are short-sighted idiots who care more about whats on the boob tube or their next re-election then honest to god Advances.

2. The Bush Admin actually wanted to get to the moon and establish a colony by 2020 until this current Adminstration pretty much killed the Program. (Included the Ares Rocket program.)

3. Everyone is waiting for someone else to run all the risks and spend millions to hundreds of millions of dollars on a system that works to where they can swoop in and implement the ideas or pay for the Tech.

4.Short Sightedness by the Goverment mostly and turning the space program into a side-show.

The real problem is that the Space Budget has been absurdly low and has been subject to cuts for decades.
When the previous Adminstration actually sat down and said. "**** it were going to space. Build us a rocket to the stars!"
The current Adminstration came in and killed the program to pay for their overblown and overall ****ty social welfare programs that are going to fail in the next 15-30 years and run up a massive deficiet.




Technically speaking we as humans lack the energy resources to travel effectively or efficiently to other nearby planets. Both Nasa and the Russian space agency are doing mock experiments where astronaut's are confined for over 500 days in a round trip experiment to Mars and back. The human body is not designed to be weightless for long periods of time, and other medical abnormalities have also been noted. It just takes too long to get to another planet using conventional spacecraft and energy sources.

Not really, we just need a ship with a constant propulsion systems. We could do this with Nuclear power if we really wanted to.
Though I'd much rather perfer Fusion Engines or Plasma for that matter.
Folks are working on Technology that should provide useful speeds.

['upxare]

1. We got the technology and know-how for deep space missions. Several concepts are in the pipe but simply NO $$$

2. Why the constellation programme has been scrapped? Why NASA receives so less funds? Because the US gov. isn't far from bankruptcy, like most other governments... something fundamentally has to be changed.

[Imperius Dictatio]

1. And you think thats NASA's fault? It's all the social welfare and bailouts and TARP money the Goverments been throwing over into the Abyss.
And you know the arguement of America having no money would be a good one...If the goverment was actually cutting spending across the board....Which they havent....Instead of cutting funding they've increased it.


2. Do you realize just how big the budget is?
Do you KNOW how much money NASA gets yearly?
They've accounted for only 0.5% for several decades. The Adminstration butchering NASA is only symbolic measure that has virtually no real effect on anything!
You want to know how many Programs and Services we should be cutting that are absolutely useless!
Hell ever since the Apollo program the budgets gone downhill.

['upxare]

Haven't you read my posting to the end? ;) I never said its Nasa's 'fault', its simply because they dont have the budget for any lofty projects. Same applies to all other space administrations around the globe, while trillions of Dollars had been pumped into the economic bail-outs, there's simply no priority and no extra money for revolutionary space concepts. Its a structural/fundamental problem, thats what I've been always saying.

[ScottWashburn]

NASA's small budget is frustrating, but don't blame the social and economic spending. NASA has been getting short-changed ever since the Apollo Program came to an end. And if the economy collapses or if the poor rise up in revolt like they are doing in Egypt right now there won't be any space program at all. Our priorities aren't the same as everyone else's. Most people's vision doesn't extend beyond a roof over their heads, food on the table and something to watch on TV. And in that, are they any different than the Na'vi? We don't see them sending out interstellar missions to Earth, do we? :)

[Lon]

To further Scotts point, wait until the emergency unemployment benefits run out for millions of Americans this year. The U.S. Government better immediately change their perspective before their people have had enough.

[Imperius Dictatio]

Well this went off the rails.
Regardless this is humanity in the far future with what seems to be a very successful space program.

Back to the matter at hand.

[ScottWashburn]

Okay, back on the original topic of the seemingly poor technology of the Humans in Avatar :) There was a very interesting audio recording of James Cameron at a conference of real scientists discussing the 'Science of Avatar'. Some really cool stuff was discussed. But one thing of interest here was that Cameron's vision of military tech was that in the near future (2011-2025, say) military tech got VERY sophisticated with all sorts of robotic weaponry. Then, in the later part of the 21st century there was developed EMP weaponry (electro-magnetic pulse) that could fry all the sophisticated computers used by those robotic weapons. The EMP stuff was easy enough to make (or get) that even terrorists and insurgents could get it. All the fancy stuff became useless. The various militaries had to go back to simpler stuff that was resistant to EMP. So, when they decided to go to Pandora with its intense magnetic fields, it was deliberately decided to use the lower-tech, but more survivable equipment and this is what we see in Avatar. This idea actually parallels Gordon R. Dickson's famous "Dorsai" novels where military tech kept getting simpler and simpler because people kept coming up with ways of disabling the higher tech stuff.

[Imperius Dictatio]

Not possible.
Military Equipment is protected agaisnt EMP weapons, it's not very hard in fact and most military equipment is shielded agaisnt EMP Detonations.
So that doesnt make much sense.

[ScottWashburn]

Well, tell that to James Cameron :)

But as I understand it, most military equipment is 'hardened' against EMP effects. It's not totally imperious. No telling what devious stuff will be developed in the second half of this century. The original question was why the humans didn't have more advanced stuff in Avatar. This is James Cameron's answer. Take it or leave it :)

[tm20]

Well, tell that to James Cameron :)

But as I understand it, most military equipment is 'hardened' against EMP effects. It's not totally imperious. No telling what devious stuff will be developed in the second half of this century. The original question was why the humans didn't have more advanced stuff in Avatar. This is James Cameron's answer. Take it or leave it :)

i see what you did there http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2011/02/4.gif

[Imperius Dictatio]

Well, tell that to James Cameron :)

But as I understand it, most military equipment is 'hardened' against EMP effects. It's not totally imperious. No telling what devious stuff will be developed in the second half of this century. The original question was why the humans didn't have more advanced stuff in Avatar. This is James Cameron's answer. Take it or leave it :)

If your going to make a movie about the far future where humans have advanced Biotech, Interstellar Space Craft, Advanced Robotics and Power Generation then someone should at least take the time to design a proper futuristic humanity.

[ScottWashburn]

Well, it's very hard to predict what the future will bring when it comes to technology. None of the SF writers of the 50s and early 60s had any clue about the coming computer revolution. Heinlein was writing about starships being navigated with slide rules or by guys doing the arithmetric in their heads. And real technological progress can be very uneven. Electronics have advanced enormously in the last 50 years. But during that same period there has been almost no advancement in aerospace technology. Rockets and airplanes today are only marginally better than they were 50 years ago. And, as every SF writer discovers, you simply can't make things TOO different or all the tech stuff gets in the way of the story and you spend more time explaining what the tech can do than you do on the story itself. And in spite of all the fantastic effects and spectacular action, Avatar is first and foremost a story about people. That's why we love it so much.

[cargo]

In today’s society the discovery of intelligent alien life either technological or not would be so earth shattering that it would be remembered as the greatest moment in human history. That moment of discovery would be so important that it would re-write all human concepts from religion to science.

Not only do you not hear about this in avatar but humanity literally goes down to the planet and starts shooting the place up for no logical explanation what so ever. Mind you this is a planet that not only has intelligent bipedal aliens that can plug into the local wild life. But it also has a god like being that is a hive mind of plants! Also this is a hive mind that could download a person’s soul and their family could still visit with them.

These are not plot holes these are black holes were logic can go F*#$ it’s self.

[KifkeyCrunchies]

In today’s society the discovery of intelligent alien life either technological or not would be so earth shattering that it would be remembered as the greatest moment in human history. That moment of discovery would be so important that it would re-write all human concepts from religion to science.

Not only do you not hear about this in avatar but humanity literally goes down to the planet and starts shooting the place up for no logical explanation what so ever. Mind you this is a planet that not only has intelligent bipedal aliens that can plug into the local wild life. But it also has a god like being that is a hive mind of plants! Also this is a hive mind that could download a person’s soul and their family could still visit with them.

These are not plot holes these are black holes were logic can go F*#$ it’s self.

Testify!

Of course, the question of why Earth is apparently such a polluted sack of crap instead of just a tired, overpopulated world made a little shinier with human enginuity and clean power still stands. The easiest answer was so Jake would have nothing to keep him identifying with Humanity before becoming (as I believe) Eywa's newest mind-slave.

[cargo]

Explain, EXPLAIN!...Okay dude.

One: the humans in the avatar verse are capable of interstellar travel but are tacking resources from another solar system from a planet with advanced alien life. There is also the other problem that they are more than capable of growing life and fusing cybernetics into it. Now I am assuming that the cybernetics is the part that makes the avatars so expensive. So without the cybernetic parts growing an avatar becomes a relatively cheap process. Now the same thing that makes that avatars could be easily used for growing and restarting earths ecosystems. In addition it could also be used for terraforming mars and other worlds and also help with agriculture. Another thing that should just come easily to the interstellar human civilization is solar energy which removes the need for taking resources from Pandora.

Two: alien life would have developed very differently from here on earth for one thing there would a different form of biology from DNA, enzymes, and proteins. Right there that would change the idea of biology and create a new field of study probably called xeno-biology. Then these proteins and enzymes could be used for medicine and possibly even other important things because of them being a different chemical makeup. Some other fields of study that would massively benefit from the discovery of Pandora would be anthropology, archeology, and history. These studies would change because right now they only stem off of human perception.

Three: then finally with the discovery of Pandora humanity would more than likely find the existence of eywa the god like being that lives on the planet. Just imagine how much human religion would change from the discovery of a hive mind being that also serves as the na’vis after life. More than likely it would start a human religion that would try and take the na’vi beliefs and mix it with our technology and science.

All of these thoughts and conclusions come from the story line and just thinking things threw logically. Avatar maybe one of the most successful movies to come out in the past few years, It may have a large devoted fan base but it just bleeds plot holes.

[ScottWashburn]

Cargo,

You are overlooking a few things. The expedition to Pandora was sent by a corporation looking to make a profit. not noble explorers . Our own history is full of similar examples. The Spanish and Portuguese came to the New World looking for gold and silver and destroyed two civilizations (Aztec and Inca) in order to get it. The first English colony in Virginia was also looking for gold but switched to growing tobacco for profit when gold proved scarce. They were fighting the native Americans from Day One. The Europeans in Africa, India and the Far East are all about making money at the expense of the locals. There's no reason not to expect the same thing on Pandora. Sure, there would be humans with more noble intentions, but even in 2011 the huge corporations are well on the way to taking control of everything and it's quite evident that none of them have a soul much less an ethical sense. By 2154, the human race will just be a wholey owned subsidiary of the RDA. The plot hole I see in Avatar is that the humans don't act a whole lot worse than they do.

[cargo]

Why would a company of all things spend the money for them to take resources from a place that is 4 light years away and takes six years to go there and come back? When all our resource needs could be answered by not even going past Jupiter’s orbit? Even then it still does not answer why they are not trying to make mars or Venus habitable planet for human life but just use it for vacation.

Also the aliens that they found were not Indians one the other side of the earth that lived in the Americas. Also the na’vi are no secret from the earth’s population and neither are their beliefs about a god like entity that is powerful as it is real.

[ScottWashburn]

Why? Because they ARE a corporation trying to make money :) While you are right that all of the ordinary resources Earth needs can be found right here, the RDA realized that by making unobtainium the 'wonder of the age' and convincing everyone they couldn't get along without it and having an absoulte monopoly on it, they could make piles of money. How many corporations are doing that right now with their own products? A lot!

As for terraforming Mars and Venus... who knows how much work that might be or how long it would take? It would probably take centuries before the RDA could start selling condominiums on Mars. So even with a six year trip, some RDA accountant figured the Pandoran venture would have a quicker payback than terraforming.

As for the Na'vi, if humans could behave so inhumanely to their own kind why would they behave any better towards aliens? And the Eywa-network isn't even a factor: no one knew about it when the operation began. They were only starting to figure it out by the end of the movie.

[cargo]

So they invent new technology to travel to an unexplored part of space, which would cost billions just for training and researching. Just to mine an element that has no real value from a planet that has alien wild life that is capable of deflecting bullets with their skin. In the process of this the people that they spent millions training are dying this included scientist, miners, and the military each one takes years to get ready. In between the fire there is the first sign of intelligent life that the population on earth knows well about. But the military is shooting up their schools for no explanation what so ever. Then there is the funny part, that we have the capability to solve all our problems without leaving the solar system which would save the company billions but we are unwilling to.
How are these not plot holes?:devil:

[ScottWashburn]

With any sort of fiction, be it written, TV or Movies there is something called the "suspension of disbelief". This refers to certain parts of the background or plot of the story that the reader/viewer has to accept just on their own merits. If the story is about vampires or werewolves you have to accept that (in the story) there are vampires or werewolves. If it's something like The Lord of the Rings you have to accept that there are elves, hobbits and orcs. If you are watching Star Trek you have to accept Klingons and Romulans. The fact that the origins of these things is not explained is not necessarily a plot hole, it's simply something that's not critical to the story. If you are unwilling to accept these things then you probably won't enjoy the story and might as well go watch something else.

In Avatar we are asked to accept that there is a human corporation mining a valuable substance on the planet Pandora. No explanation is given about why or how this happened (that would take another whole movie). You can either accept it and enjoy the movie, or refuse to accept it and complain about the movie. Your choice. :)

[cargo]

I understand what you are trying to say about suspending disbelief but when there are things that the audience can solve faster then the writer then it’s bade story telling. Were other stories are about taking the unbelievable and telling a story in a believably way can make it a surprising ride for the audience. It’s just that its something that avatar does not have. Also I’m not trying to be a hater I would have been a massive fan of avatar if the creator know how to balance the believable and unbelievable. It’s just that these things get in the way of an old sci-fi fan. And until avatar 2 comes out with a better story line I’m going with what this guy said.


If your going to make a movie about the far future where humans have advanced Biotech, Interstellar Space Craft, Advanced Robotics and Power Generation then someone should at least take the time to design a proper futuristic humanity.

[Sanjwale]

^i dont blame you, everybody is free with what he thinks, but how did you found this forum? if you don't like avatar how do you get this forum?

and, you will never know what in the future is possible, and beside that, it wasn't james cameron his meant to be a sci-fi movie. he only want to let us see how beautifull earth is and how we are destroying it! even me, because i also use gas to warm the house where i life. (again no offensive ;))

[cargo]

I watched the movie and thought that there was more story line than what I watched. Then the thought hit me there are online forums that are probably full people that are talking about the unheard of story for the movie. So I joined this forum looked around and did not find any thing.

[Sanjwale]

i think there is enough story line, if you first watched it, did you tought jake and neytri should do tsaheylu? i didn't

and i think it was also a message, that whe are destroying our earth!

[cargo]

WAT!?:ntongue:

[ScottWashburn]

I understand what you are trying to say about suspending disbelief but when there are things that the audience can solve faster then the writer then it’s bade story telling. Were other stories are about taking the unbelievable and telling a story in a believably way can make it a surprising ride for the audience. It’s just that its something that avatar does not have. Also I’m not trying to be a hater I would have been a massive fan of avatar if the creator know how to balance the believable and unbelievable. It’s just that these things get in the way of an old sci-fi fan. And until avatar 2 comes out with a better story line I’m going with what this guy said.







I understand what you're saying and I, too, want to know about all that stuff. That's one of the things I do with the Avatar fan fiction that I write: I fill in the background. But for me, that's all just an added bonus, it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of the movie as it is.

[Imperius Dictatio]

Well, it's very hard to predict what the future will bring when it comes to technology. None of the SF writers of the 50s and early 60s had any clue about the coming computer revolution. Heinlein was writing about starships being navigated with slide rules or by guys doing the arithmetric in their heads. And real technological progress can be very uneven. Electronics have advanced enormously in the last 50 years. But during that same period there has been almost no advancement in aerospace technology. Rockets and airplanes today are only marginally better than they were 50 years ago. And, as every SF writer discovers, you simply can't make things TOO different or all the tech stuff gets in the way of the story and you spend more time explaining what the tech can do than you do on the story itself. And in spite of all the fantastic effects and spectacular action, Avatar is first and foremost a story about people. That's why we love it so much.

While we may not know exactly just how technology will change in the future it is possible to observe certain trends and make logical extrapolations of how the technology as presented will progress.
Authors who wrote Sci-Fi back in the 50's and 60's you are correct DIDNT get a lot of the things they wrote about correctly.
Note how I say some of the things. A startling amount of things they write about eventually becomes standard fare in todays society.
One thing you have to remember though is the folks back then were expecting an Energy Age when instead we got an Information Age.


In today’s society the discovery of intelligent alien life either technological or not would be so earth shattering that it would be remembered as the greatest moment in human history. That moment of discovery would be so important that it would re-write all human concepts from religion to science.

Not only do you not hear about this in avatar but humanity literally goes down to the planet and starts shooting the place up for no logical explanation what so ever. Mind you this is a planet that not only has intelligent bipedal aliens that can plug into the local wild life. But it also has a god like being that is a hive mind of plants! Also this is a hive mind that could download a person’s soul and their family could still visit with them.

These are not plot holes these are black holes were logic can go F*#$ it’s self.
Agreed.
The discovery of two other sapient life-form's would be a major milestone in human history.


Testify!

Of course, the question of why Earth is apparently such a polluted sack of crap instead of just a tired, overpopulated world made a little shinier with human enginuity and clean power still stands. The easiest answer was so Jake would have nothing to keep him identifying with Humanity before becoming (as I believe) Eywa's newest mind-slave.

Even this trend is incorrect given declining birth rates.
I think the human population will either drop by 2150 or reach a stable number of 10 billion.
And with space-flight, advanced energy generation technology and conservation efforts the Western Countries have been engaging in since the turn of the 1900's the idea that earth is a blasted toxic hellscape doesnt add up.
Given that the advanced Energy Generation and opening up the Solar System to Humanity would actually take a lot of the pressure off of the earth.


Explain, EXPLAIN!...Okay dude.

One: the humans in the avatar verse are capable of interstellar travel but are tacking resources from another solar system from a planet with advanced alien life. There is also the other problem that they are more than capable of growing life and fusing cybernetics into it. Now I am assuming that the cybernetics is the part that makes the avatars so expensive. So without the cybernetic parts growing an avatar becomes a relatively cheap process. Now the same thing that makes that avatars could be easily used for growing and restarting earths ecosystems. In addition it could also be used for terraforming mars and other worlds and also help with agriculture. Another thing that should just come easily to the interstellar human civilization is solar energy which removes the need for taking resources from Pandora.

Two: alien life would have developed very differently from here on earth for one thing there would a different form of biology from DNA, enzymes, and proteins. Right there that would change the idea of biology and create a new field of study probably called xeno-biology. Then these proteins and enzymes could be used for medicine and possibly even other important things because of them being a different chemical makeup. Some other fields of study that would massively benefit from the discovery of Pandora would be anthropology, archeology, and history. These studies would change because right now they only stem off of human perception.

Three: then finally with the discovery of Pandora humanity would more than likely find the existence of eywa the god like being that lives on the planet. Just imagine how much human religion would change from the discovery of a hive mind being that also serves as the na’vis after life. More than likely it would start a human religion that would try and take the na’vi beliefs and mix it with our technology and science.

All of these thoughts and conclusions come from the story line and just thinking things threw logically. Avatar maybe one of the most successful movies to come out in the past few years, It may have a large devoted fan base but it just bleeds plot holes.

1. The Cybernetics would actually be the cheap part.
2. Agreed the advanced Biotech humans show in translating a lifeform without DNA into something that they can blend DNA and an Artificial DNA made from whatever the hell the Aliens are made up from would mean re-creating Earths Biosphere would be childs play.
Hell creating a Microbe that eats away at the polluted atmosphere would be childs play.
3. Orbital Solar Mirrors would solve any and all Energy requirements the earth might need.
4. Xeno Sciences like you said would open up.
But I highly doubt they would supplant or provide an alternate viewpoint on Terran Based History/Philosopy and etc.
The viewpoints are far to differnt.
5. It's not a god like being.
It's a giant plant that functions as a hive-mind.
It would have no effect on Current religions. Though it is likely it would spawn it's own cult it probably could never really compete in the Sol System.



Cargo,

You are overlooking a few things. The expedition to Pandora was sent by a corporation looking to make a profit. not noble explorers . Our own history is full of similar examples. The Spanish and Portuguese came to the New World looking for gold and silver and destroyed two civilizations (Aztec and Inca) in order to get it. The first English colony in Virginia was also looking for gold but switched to growing tobacco for profit when gold proved scarce. They were fighting the native Americans from Day One. The Europeans in Africa, India and the Far East are all about making money at the expense of the locals. There's no reason not to expect the same thing on Pandora. Sure, there would be humans with more noble intentions, but even in 2011 the huge corporations are well on the way to taking control of everything and it's quite evident that none of them have a soul much less an ethical sense. By 2154, the human race will just be a wholey owned subsidiary of the RDA. The plot hole I see in Avatar is that the humans don't act a whole lot worse than they do.

1. Lets be fair here. The Aztecs were destroyed via a Civil War started by the Spainish.
The Spainish just served as a Catalyst.

2. Jamestown to my knowledge wasnt in direct conflict with surrounding native populations at the start of things.
And the Native Americans arent innocent by a long shot as they were just as bloody in their affairs with the Settlers as the Settlers were to them later on.

3. This had more to do with Imperialism and Nation States then Corporations.
Though the British East India Company does stand out I will admit. They were still subserviant to the crown.

4. Yes there is a reason why we should expect differnt.
Becuase the humans of 2154 are not humans from the years 1462, 1607 or 1850. Human culture has advanced to a point where we view Imperialism as bad.
The Indian Wars as pretty bad. (And they were in fact wars.)
The partioning of Africa as bad.
Not to mention that the Na'vi are not humans but a differnt sapient life-form in a galaxy that humans may of thought up till then as devoid of sapient life. It would be INSANE for anyone to go to war with them.


Why? Because they ARE a corporation trying to make money :) While you are right that all of the ordinary resources Earth needs can be found right here, the RDA realized that by making unobtainium the 'wonder of the age' and convincing everyone they couldn't get along without it and having an absoulte monopoly on it, they could make piles of money. How many corporations are doing that right now with their own products? A lot!

As for terraforming Mars and Venus... who knows how much work that might be or how long it would take? It would probably take centuries before the RDA could start selling condominiums on Mars. So even with a six year trip, some RDA accountant figured the Pandoran venture would have a quicker payback than terraforming.

As for the Na'vi, if humans could behave so inhumanely to their own kind why would they behave any better towards aliens? And the Eywa-network isn't even a factor: no one knew about it when the operation began. They were only starting to figure it out by the end of the movie.

Over-Exaggerating the effects of a Corporation and pretty much leaning agaisnt an often abused trope.
Also no Corporation in America has a pure monopoly on something, those days are gone.

For Venus? It depends on the technology involved.
If humans were to live in Aerostats and float above the clouds Terraforming would take 70 years.
True Terraforming possibly hundreds....Though the pay-off is massive.

Mars would likely need only 100 years and then an additional fifty to where theirs enough oxygen for you to not wear a simple oxygen mask.

Once again becuase these are humans from 2154 and not the 1850's.


So they invent new technology to travel to an unexplored part of space, which would cost billions just for training and researching. Just to mine an element that has no real value from a planet that has alien wild life that is capable of deflecting bullets with their skin. In the process of this the people that they spent millions training are dying this included scientist, miners, and the military each one takes years to get ready. In between the fire there is the first sign of intelligent life that the population on earth knows well about. But the military is shooting up their schools for no explanation what so ever. Then there is the funny part, that we have the capability to solve all our problems without leaving the solar system which would save the company billions but we are unwilling to.
How are these not plot holes?:devil:
Agreement.
Doesnt make any since.
Mine HE-3 from Jupiter and use it in Fusion Reactors along with orbital solar collectors.
That solves the energy problem.


With any sort of fiction, be it written, TV or Movies there is something called the "suspension of disbelief". This refers to certain parts of the background or plot of the story that the reader/viewer has to accept just on their own merits. If the story is about vampires or werewolves you have to accept that (in the story) there are vampires or werewolves. If it's something like The Lord of the Rings you have to accept that there are elves, hobbits and orcs. If you are watching Star Trek you have to accept Klingons and Romulans. The fact that the origins of these things is not explained is not necessarily a plot hole, it's simply something that's not critical to the story. If you are unwilling to accept these things then you probably won't enjoy the story and might as well go watch something else.

In Avatar we are asked to accept that there is a human corporation mining a valuable substance on the planet Pandora. No explanation is given about why or how this happened (that would take another whole movie). You can either accept it and enjoy the movie, or refuse to accept it and complain about the movie. Your choice. :)

They did an episode to explain all of those species.
Werewolves and Vampires are long standing cultural boogeymen who people like to read about. These typically fall into Fantasy or Urban Fantasy novels and let people drop their Suspension of Disbelief a few more notches.

Avatar tries to come across as Hard Science Fiction and thus sets itself to a very high standard....Which makes it much easier to break SoDB.





^i dont blame you, everybody is free with what he thinks, but how did you found this forum? if you don't like avatar how do you get this forum?

and, you will never know what in the future is possible, and beside that, it wasn't james cameron his meant to be a sci-fi movie. he only want to let us see how beautifull earth is and how we are destroying it! even me, because i also use gas to warm the house where i life. (again no offensive ;))

Oh please.
We can no more destroy the earth then snuff out the sun. You grossly exaggerate humanities casual affect on the planet.
For example.
We could nuke the planet and leave it a radioactive hell....And the earth will keep on spinning and eventually recover, it has plenty of time to. Several billion years and all.
And hate to burst your bubble.
It's labeled as a Sci-Fi movie, not an Enviormental Flick.

[cargo]

But I highly doubt they would supplant or provide an alternate viewpoint on Terran Based History/Philosopy and etc...Though it is likely it would spawn it's own cult it probably could never really compete in the Sol System.

I was just thinking that there would be some kind of xeno-archeology and xeno- anthropology because of the na’vi being capable of having a culture and building tools.


Yes there is a reason why we should expect differnt.

Becuase the humans of 2154 are not humans from the years 1462, 1607 or 1850. Human culture has advanced to a point where we view Imperialism as bad.
The Indian Wars as pretty bad. (And they were in fact wars.)
The partioning of Africa as bad.
Not to mention that the Na'vi are not humans but a differnt sapient life-form in a galaxy that humans may of thought up till then as devoid of sapient life. It would be INSANE for anyone to go to war with them.

AGREED!


For Venus? It depends on the technology involved...If humans were to live in Aerostats and float above the clouds Terraforming would take 70 years.
True Terraforming possibly hundreds....Though the pay-off is massive.

I was surprised to find out that the largest and highest mountains on Venus could be a great start for colonizing the planet because of the pressure and temperature dropping the higher you are. This would remove the worry of colonist catching fire or any other problems. And your right about having three different earth planets in our solar system being amazing.



Oh please. We can no more destroy the earth then snuff out the sun. You grossly exaggerate humanities casual affect on the planet. For example. We could nuke the planet and leave it a radioactive hell....And the earth will keep on spinning and eventually recover, it has plenty of time to. Several billion years and all. And hate to burst your bubble.

You are right again, thank you for taking a large dosage of reality and scientific fact and injecting it into this thread.

[ScottWashburn]

Imperious,

Obviously you have some strong opinions on this subject :) I could address them point by point, but the bottom line is that you have a vision of what the year 2154 is going to look like and it is very different from James Cameron's vision of 2154. The only thing I can say with absolute confidence is that you are both wrong :) Whatever 2154 ends up being like it won't be either yours or Cameron's vision. There's just no way to predict that far ahead with any accuracy at all. So, this comes down to what I said to Cargo: either suspend your disbelief, accept Cameron's vision for what it is and enjoy Avatar--or don't.

[cargo]

Okay before any of us started with our crazy complicated theories in this thread, it started with a legitimate question about James Cameron’s avatar. This was not about what humanity will really be like in a hundred years or what technology will be like at this point it was really about the movie and the story behind it.
The original question was why is it that humanity in James Cameron’s avatar has the tools and technology necessary for them to solve all of humanities problems from over population, hunger, and energy. Continually through out this thread the guy that started it has pointed out what tools and technology humanity in avatar has for them to solve these problems. These were not questions about what humanity will really be like in the year 2154, these were questions directly about James Cameron’s avatar.
If everyone else on this forum can think about or ask questions about or write fanficts about the na’vi then people should also be abile to do the same with humanity in James Cameron’s avatar.

[Imperius Dictatio]

I was just thinking that there would be some kind of xeno-archeology and xeno- anthropology because of the na’vi being capable of having a culture and building tools.



AGREED!



[FONT=Tahoma]I was surprised to find out that the largest and highest mountains on Venus could be a great start for colonizing the planet because of the pressure and temperature dropping the higher you are. This would remove the worry of colonist catching fire or any other problems. And your right about having three different earth planets in our solar system being amazing.
[FONT=Tahoma]



You are right again, thank you for taking a large dosage of reality and scientific fact and injecting it into this thread.

1. I thought you said Xeno Sciences would supply an alternate look on Terran Sciences. Something thats not possible and far fetched.
Yes Xeno Sciences would be very big.

2. Yes Venus is notable for having an earth like gravity and an Air Pressure similiar to earth just above the clouds.
Aerostat Colonies would be massive engineering projects.
Read Eclipse Phase: Sunward for information on Venusian Terraforming and Colonization. It might be an RPG but Posthuman Studios does a very good job of portraying quite accurate Terraforming Projects.

Not earth like planets. You'd have to tinker with them to make them earth like.
I personally think its worth it though.

3. Well I do try.
I'm a Transhumanist and a lover of Science Fiction. (Both hard and soft.)



Imperious,

Obviously you have some strong opinions on this subject :) I could address them point by point, but the bottom line is that you have a vision of what the year 2154 is going to look like and it is very different from James Cameron's vision of 2154. The only thing I can say with absolute confidence is that you are both wrong :) Whatever 2154 ends up being like it won't be either yours or Cameron's vision. There's just no way to predict that far ahead with any accuracy at all. So, this comes down to what I said to Cargo: either suspend your disbelief, accept Cameron's vision for what it is and enjoy Avatar--or don't.

You missed the point I was making.


[FONT=Tahoma]Okay before any of us started with our crazy complicated theories in this thread, it started with a legitimate question about James Cameron’s avatar. This was not about what humanity will really be like in a hundred years or what technology will be like at this point it was really about the movie and the story behind it.
The original question was why is it that humanity in James Cameron’s avatar has the tools and technology necessary for them to solve all of humanities problems from over population, hunger, and energy. Continually through out this thread the guy that started it has pointed out what tools and technology humanity in avatar has for them to solve these problems. These were not questions about what humanity will really be like in the year 2154, these were questions directly about James Cameron’s avatar.
If everyone else on this forum can think about or ask questions about or write fanficts about the na’vi then people should also be abile to do the same with humanity in James Cameron’s avatar.

You actually get my point.
That is good

[KifkeyCrunchies]

Alright, let me put the problem succinctly. James Cameron put all this high technology into the movie, enough to have the Earth transformed into a modern Elysium wile, and at the same time, still ensuring the RDA their mind-bogglingly huge profits. However, he has presented the Earth as the apocalyptic nightmare of the early Environmentalist movement (poisoned, smoggy, overcrowded, little plant-life left... think trying to use a planet the Covenant had just glassed as a refugee transit-point for the entire UNSC territory).

Additionally, In my view, the Na'vi do not seem to be so much the idealized "Native" or Rousseaus' Noble Savage so much as an extremely advanced civilization who engineered the place and was then shoehorned into their cultural equivalent of Rousseau's paradigm.

Not to mention how much easier it would have been if they had had their best people working on a way to tunnel-mine the Hometree deposits while maintaining dendro-integrity, meanwhile showering the Omatikaya with gifts of the weaponized variety... or maybe they were trying that before the school incident, who knows?

[cargo]

I’ve been too busy with things in my life for me to come back and give my final answer to the person that started this thread. The resin that humanity in James Camron’s avatar have the technology to solve all their problems without ever leaving the solar system and never used it was because it was never a movie in the first place. All avatar was and ever will be is a CGI/3D selling movie with the directors out dated political views for a storyline.
Another thing to think about is the fact that the movie was made to bring in a new audience that Hollywood has failed to bring in. They are the environmentalist and the people who think they are environments.
This is meant to go to the person that started this thread because we have all done everything but answer the original question. I am also well aware of the fact that not all of you will like this answer all I can say is deal with it. I am also not willing to take made up answers to aviod answering the original question.

[Sanjwale]

does it care it is a movie?

did you never see something that you see everyday en when you tought about it, hey... that is... (fill in for yourself)

that is what I got. before I saw avatar I never looked at the stars, to trees, to a flowing river. but now after I look at it all the time. that is why avatar is so great. it isn't just another story that whe are destroying our earth. It let us see how beautifull this earth is and how whe are destroying it.

(no offense btw, just my opinion :))

[cargo]

does it care it is a movie?
did you never see something that you see everyday en when you tought about it, hey... that is... (fill in for yourself)
that is what I got. before I saw avatar I never looked at the stars, to trees, to a flowing river. but now after I look at it all the time. that is why avatar is so great. it isn't just another story that whe are destroying our earth. It let us see how beautifull this earth is and how whe are destroying it.
(no offense btw, just my opinion ) It is your opinion and I respect it. However, when I watched the movie as soon as the main character meet whatever her name is, I had already predicted the story line of the film and know what turns and twist were going to happen.

In addition, I don’t mean this in a rude way but I find it sad that it took a film to transports audiences to a fictional world to understand the real threats and dangers that are in their real world.

did you never see something that you see everyday en when you tought about it, hey... that is... (fill in for yourself) I saw avatar I never looked at the stars, to trees, to a flowing river. but now after I look at it all the time.

I have always taken the time to look at the natural world, hell I even built a cheap telescope that can look at mars, I’ve even rebuilt my barn to be as energy efficient as possible. I’ve built a microscope and I am learning Latin, mathematics, physics, and chemistry. It never took a film for me to find the inspiration to do these kinds of things and it shouldn’t have to be that way for you or anyone else.

What I have just told you are all really real facts about my life and I’m just an average person just like you and everyone else on this forum. The only difference between you and me is that I understand the amount of power, knowledge, and potential that a single person can choose to have and let me tell you it goes far beyond what they na’vi have.

You know what it’s a good thing that avatar helped to open you and others eyes to the world around you. However, your eyes are not fully open you have to evolve past what they film gave you and start learning and growing past the film and your expectations.

I have said all these things because I see a great deal of potential in this internet forum. But time after time again I see it restrained because you all see things from the films standpoint which keeps you and others from seeing very real threats in the world.

Also all of you should read the Dhammapada because it will change your life, and yes what I put in this thread today was only intended to answer op’s question because I thought he disserved my own opinion.

P.S. Yes, it has almost taken me twenty years just to reach this point in my life but I am happy and it feels good. Also things that are worth doing are hard for a very real resin.

[Sanjwale]

It is your opinion and I respect it
alright, I don't know if I already said it but your opinion I respect to :)

I have always taken the time to look at the natural world,
That one I didn't expected haha,

hell I even built a cheap telescope that can look at mars,
Can I ask you how you did it? :)

[cargo]

It’s been years but my parents helped me out by getting the important parts like the lens and an old classical science book. I had to work on the body of the telescope, when I finally tried it out the image was fuzzy probably having something to do with mars being closer to the earth once every 2 ½ years. But it was a fun project even if thougth it was not the world’s greatest homemade telescope.
I just realized that some of my old science books are way better then the new science books!

[cargo]

I have always taken the time to look at the natural world,
That one I didn't expected haha,

What does that mean?

[Sanjwale]

just..

Lets take imperius dictato as example. he doesn't like the na'vi, and is a rda lover. and the don't give a damn **** about the nature. (or atleast never said it)

and you like the rda but still love the nature.

that is what I didn't expected :)

[cargo]

just..

Lets take imperius dictato as example. he doesn't like the na'vi, and is a rda lover. and the don't give a damn **** about the nature. (or atleast never said it)

and you like the rda but still love the nature.

that is what I didn't expected

I would not say that about imperius, he obviously understands the importance of science and technology and understands the importance of storytelling in science fiction. By being well versed in these topics, I just don’t see how anyone couldn’t see the importance of nature.

You and others on the other hand see the very importance of nature but also forget the importance of human knowledge, science, and the capability of technology. It’s a good thing that everyone has their own opinion on the subject but it’s also important to be in between both arguments to have a bigger picture.

Also I don’t like the RDA, the whole topic of this thread is about how they were poorly thought out. However, the technology they use does look cool.

[Sanjwale]

. However, the technology they use does look cool.

alright, the technology is very cool. it is amazing to have it. but then use it for the good things.

and about imperius dictato, I never saw that he write anything about the nature.

[cargo]

alright, the technology is very cool. it is amazing to have it. but then use it for the good things.

Yes technology is amazing and may as well be a gift to humanity. However, to truly start using it for the greater good a person would have to understand how it works and start experimenting with it and building.


and about imperius dictato, I never saw that he write anything about the nature.

A person doesn’t have to write about nature to show that they care about it or understand it.

Also what is your issue with technology, science, and other things?

[Sanjwale]

I think I understand it wrong,

Issue is problem right? i don't have problems with technology, only whe are using it wrong right now.

[cargo]

I think I understand it wrong, Issue is problem right?

I'm sorry what?



i don't have problems with technology, only whe are using it wrong right now.

Exactly, the only way we can fix this problem is by understanding technology and fixing it.

[Sanjwale]

Also what is your issue with technology, science, and other things?

Issue means problem right? I don't have a problem, that is what I mean ;)

[cargo]

Issue means problem right? I don't have a problem, that is what I mean ;)

Okay sorry my fault,


...Is it me or did we just make history on this website where two people had a conversation without getting angry at each other and continued the conversation tell there was nothing left to discus?

[Sanjwale]

you know why? because whe both respect each others opinion. and most who love the rda, or don't like the na'vi or whatever don't do that.

congratulations :)

[KifkeyCrunchies]

Alright, new subject time.

MAC rounds: Yes, No, Maybe?

[Aihwa]

Nuclear tipped MAC rounds.


**** yeah.

[KifkeyCrunchies]

Nuclear tipped MAC rounds.


**** yeah.

No point, really. That is, unless you want to poison the planet with radiation for the next century. As for explosive power... once the round hits atmosphere, the nuke is extraneous.

Anyway, are they possible given the other tech present?

[KifkeyCrunchies]

Actually, since the Humans do have railguns, coilguns are possible and since MAC cannons follow the same principle.

And if there is an emergency such as... say, the same horde of alien fanatics who glassed Pandora back to the Stone Age decide to make us their next target, things can happen amazingly fast.

(Presented in Lieu of Imperious)

"HERE'S A THOUSAND TONS OF TUNGSTEN STEEL FOR YOU TO SWALLOW, COVIE MOTHER&%#$ERS!! HAHAHAHA!!"

[Aihwa]

EVERYTHING, is better, with nukes. No exceptions.

[KifkeyCrunchies]

Well, nukes will always have their place (time-delayed explosives, sabotage devices, fighter-borne ship-destroyers) but for sheer, grandiose, hang-onto-your-teeth oomph against capital ships in open space, nothing quite beets the ol' MAC... or the new MAC, if you modify an ISV with the right mag coils, stabilizers and get that dang mirror off the front.

[Imperius Dictatio]

I still greatly prefer Antimatter Cluster Munitions.
And it works in setting becuase they can create a metric ****-ton of the stuff to the point where they can somehow use it to power earths energy grid.

[KifkeyCrunchies]

I still greatly prefer Antimatter Cluster Munitions.
And it works in setting becuase they can create a metric ****-ton of the stuff to the point where they can somehow use it to power earths energy grid.

That fits too and I must say, I like it.

I don't know, I guess it's just a fanon thing (at least in my case) to want to fit Halo-verse concepts onto Avatar Earth... for some reason.

[RD-701]

Just because assumptions are made about technological development (and such assumptions are widely held) does not mean they hold any actual bearing on what development actually happens, in reality or in a hypothetical/fictional scenario.

Just because the Avatar-verse isn't a genetic engineering utopia as some idealise the future doesn't mean the technology is deficient. The technology is stated to exist- and to be highly advanced (they can somehow translate DNA into alien biomolecules to hybridise a particular human's genetic makeup with that of a totally alien organism!). And we don't see all of the Avatar world- for all we know, people could be genetically modified, and we just don't see it (or them).

A lot of the other technology developments are evolutionary, rather than revolutionary- this is quite a realistic thing, since a technology doesn't continue advancing forever. It reaches its practical limits, and then is refined to perform its job better as time goes on. We see all sorts of things in the Avatar technology, like carbon nanotube composites, ceramic tools and turbine assemblies, improved polymers, etc. The timescale on which things like these could be incorperated is a different issue, but it isn't really stated when most of these technologies came on line in the Avatar universe (for all we know helicopters could have been flying with ceramic turbine blades a hundred years before the events of the film). We also have 'stereolithography' that can make a wide variety of items and components... presumably from local materials from the 'middle of nowhere' (i.e. not fed with specially refined feedstocks of material).

Some of the other technologies are truely staggering. We're looking at fusion rockets that fit into a hundred-meter long, single-stage-to-orbit spaceplane! That TAV really ought to be the envy of anyone following launch vehicle design.

Then we've got the ISV... an interstellar spacecraft even a tiny bit as epic as it is far out of our current reach. Again we're treated to all sorts of tidbits of the technologies that make it up (such as the reflective coating on the solar sail).

Some things simply don't make it, because they're not practical, they're not necessary, or they simply make no sense in the real world. Take the Gyrojet guns for instance. They may be a more 'futuristic' concept than usual firearms, sure. But they came onto the scene decades ago and they're not widely adopted (they were never widely adopted). The concept simply has several flaws that do not make it practical. The same goes for any number of other "futuristic" things- in theory at least if not absolutely. I don't think it is fair to complain about the 'tech level' in Avatar being poor just because it doesn't include railguns or lasers or cybernetics or antigravity or whathaveyou that is regarded as 'futuristic'.

A more pressing reason for complaint should probably be internal inconsistency- like how the RDA is able to conjure up the astronomically huge amounts of energy to produce the antimatter and power the laser to propel the ISV fleet, yet Earth has an energy crisis. A tiny fraction of the power required for those tasks would be more than enough to supply the Earth... and that is just one example.

From a storytelling perspective though, it really helps that the people are using 'real' technology and not science fiction stuff... I think it helps one relate more to the story, to take it more seriously than it might be taken otherwise.