Humans

[The Man in Black]

Here's an interesting question: do you believe that the human species is more of a virus to its habitat, or more of a protector of its home world? Watching "The Matrix" reminded me of this, when Agent Smith is talking to Morpheus about humans. He makes a solid point that really the only other organism on this planet that hasn't found a niche without having to spread to stay alive is the virus. An interesting side note is that viruses ride the boundary between our definition of "living" and "not living", because they only meet the requirements of being "alive" when they are within a host. But another idea is that humans are here to be protectors of this planet. While some say we may not do an amazing job, we actually are developing means to protect our home world from asteroid attacks, etc...

There are many sides to this debate, I just presented two semi-opposing ones.

[James of terra]

Humans are destructive, but I point out that I think well have lost our way and we are out of touch with our natural habitat. The Indusrtrial reveloitin change all that, we are poisioned by easy and covenince way of life.

[josie20]

we actually are developing means to protect our home world from asteroid attacks, etc...
This is simply self preservation. If we could survive without our earth we wouldn't care. We, as a whole, are selfish.


Just my opinion, folks.

[Jaytalon]

Don't get carried away. Humans are a part of nature. They always have been, and no matter what we do, we always will be. We did not simply arrive on the planet (or, since I'm religious and on the fence about evolution for a number of reasons, maybe we did "arrive") and start destroying; it is not in our inherent nature to be destructive, but to be good. And as for what harm we did cause in the earliest of years, back when we were at the point of the Na'vi, I can tell you that we did not know any better. What I wish people would keep in mind is that we don't have queues and cannot simply hook up with the planet and hear its "voice;" we had to do everything the hard way and learn through trial and error. I think the knowledge we have prevents that now.

I read something recently on TVTropes that stated, roughly, that the reason why places like Africa and Australia are so brutal and tough is that humans were there for a long, long time, and the wildlife evolved with humans in mind: namely, so that it could kill them; so when environmentalists say that we need to "live in harmony with nature," they may or may not be aware that they're asking us to make sure that our planet wants to kill us. Pandora was a place like that, remember? It wasn't all songs and moonlight. It was tough, and I read on the wiki that if the Na'vi grow too numerous, Eywa will devise a way to kill some of them off. I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a world where the wildlife might just decide to kill me or somebody I love just because I'm part of some excess in population. Right now, we are no longer in that stage; we are in a position where we can protect ourselves and other creatures from "Mother Nature" and her wrath. Don't forget that as much harm as this causes, it is used just as much for benevolent purposes.

Unbelievably, my pro-human ramblings have brought me to a conclusion: In that way, I think we are the protectors of this world, and aren't doing as bad a job as people here say we are. With science and technology where it is and advancing rapidly, we can even find ways to reverse the damage we have caused. So, I think it works out as well as it ever could for this world.

(You know, I think I had better just adopt a pro-human forum signature and be done with it. Then people would know where I stand without all this. But I just can't help myself sometimes...)

[Sanjwale]

I read something recently on TVTropes that stated, roughly, that the reason why places like Africa and Australia are so brutal and tough is that humans were there for a long, long time, and the wildlife evolved with humans in mind: namely, so that it could kill them; so when environmentalists say that we need to "live in harmony with nature," they may or may not be aware that they're asking us to make sure that our planet wants to kill us. Pandora was a place like that, remember? It wasn't all songs and moonlight. It was tough, and I read on the wiki that if the Na'vi grow too numerous, Eywa will devise a way to kill some of them off. I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in a world where the wildlife might just decide to kill me or somebody I love just because I'm part of some excess in population. Right now, we are no longer in that stage; we are in a position where we can protect ourselves and other creatures from "Mother Nature" and her wrath. Don't forget that as much harm as this causes, it is used just as much for benevolent purposes.



you know that when the na'vi die that they are going to eywa. huge different, here is god (whatever your god is) you will never see him. you will never know he is in there. on pandora you can speak with eywa. and hear the voices of dead na'vi.

so if your girlfriend die because of some animals and i know that she would go to eywa, i would still cry but not that hard. because i know that she go to a beautifull place. :)

[Jaytalon]

Yes, when Na'vi die, they go to Eywa. They may or may not actually see a physical entity there. I have always wondered whether Eywa does have a physical form, or if the planet is her physical form (I'm leaning toward this one), or what. And as for seeing God, when did anybody ever say that you won't ever meet God when you die? And can you actually speak to specific Na'vi and will they answer with words, or are they just part of the whole? No further statements, just questions, really. But we're getting off-topic here.

My bottom line: Humans are protectors, or at least not destroyers.

Interesting username, by the way. It's kind of odd seeing it on somebody else, because I'm writing a huge Avatar fanfic (one riddled with OCs, but still an Avatar fanfic) in which the second most important character is named Tsanten. He's, um...a different one. He's supposed to be a sweet character, but...different. I should probably just come up with another name instead of getting one from the generator, but by now, I'm too attached to the name to get rid of it! Besides, it has a nice sound to it.

[Sanjwale]

"my bottom line: humans are protectors, or at least not destroyers"

agree but most of us need learn that.

btw. can you give me a little bit more info about your avatar fanfic. im now interessed :nsmile:

[Tsyal Makto]

Posted it in another thread, might be relevant here, too.

We're not misanthropes (well, some might be, but you'll find that in any group). Look, from a purely quantitative standpoint, the people who do good for the world outnumber those who do bad. The problem is that those who do bad have all the: 1. money, 2. political power, and 3. media attention. Sure, the RDA might not represent humanity as a whole, but the real RDAs of the world have all the economic and social power, they rule the world. Companies like BP that can nearly kill off the Gulf of Mexico and walk away from it. Companies like Apple that push sweatshop workers in China to the point of suicide. Companies like FOX news that not only underinform their audiences, but purposely misinform them. Not to mention the corruption and political power of organized religion.

We'd just like to see less pollution, less corporatism, and less environmental destruction, and more of stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCnWZncHH2Y). A rather noble hope, no? And people are disillusioned and angry is because we have so much of the former, and so little of the latter.

And TBH I think it's a good attitude to have. If you've ever seen the movie "Network," you'd know that the first step toward change is to me mad as hell about the problem. And if you'll read Threshold (like I mentioned in the other thread), you'd know there's lots of problems out there, but also lots of solutions. It just takes the fortitude and strength to confront them, which I feel many here have. I've been here a lot longer than you have, trust me, I know the people here. :nsmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU

That might be a good watch, too.

[tm20]

i would say more virus than protector, yes there are people who try hard to preserve, restore, protect our world but there are even more who just want to milk it for everything it has (resources). then there are some who are in between, they want to use these resources in a sustainable way. i simplified answer but i'm not one that goes into great detail. anyway i'm sure you understand what i'm saying.

[Replica]

We are both. We are the controllers or our own fate. As a spices we both create, protect and destroy. It's just a question of which why do we want to swing.

[Tsawke'iheyu]

To begin, I have to say that Humans belong to Nature and not viceversa. Humans as the Na'vi have the bond with the planet and could restore it, there's no doubt on that. We, as the Na'vi, had the same bond with the surroundings, but very long time ago, that happened way before the great "civilisations" started to appear. It doesn't have to deal ONLY with the Industrial Revolution, because industry exists every since human discovered Earth's ground resources, stone, metal blah blah. Every since the discovery of Earth's resources and how valuble they are, we started to forget about the fact that WE BELONG TO NATURE and not NATURE TO US.

And we are not a "civilisation" anymore, and we never were a "civilisation", because a "civilisation" evolves as a WHOLE. The differences between everyone of us made possible the individualism and the lack of caring about each other. I remind here a quote from the movie 2012 : "The moment we will stop fighting for each other, that's when we will lose our humanity !". So true. But that, again, started when we found resources and started to exploit them for our own. So sad. Humanity along with technology, industry and MENTALITY became a stranger to Earth. There are so many conspiracies and prophecies that say and support the fact that from 2012 we will start to rebuild our HOME, Earth, and to be more caring with the environment. Oh, how I'd love to see and live that... :nsad:

[Sanjwale]

i still dont know what i need to believe of the human's,

if i see Avatar i think whe are the protectors or earth and whe are destroying it!
or... it's just how the humans are and in a few (ten, hunderds, thousand) years there will no human anymore. only because whe want everything. also things whe dont can get. and everyone wil more and more.

actually, i dont care anymore, i would love to go to pandora. see, jump, run everything in tree's and hunting for food. but, i dont think i can go to pandora. (but i keep faith :nsmile: )

[NAvi_warrior64]

i think humans as a whole, we did some good things and...we did some bad things, but the bad things are starting outweigh the good things.....for example: nuclear weapons, we armed ourselves to destroy the world 5 times over.....why do we have such weapons when we don't intend to use them?...or do we?

I feel bad for the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki back in 1945.....
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2011/02/1.jpg

Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a good example for how the bad things are starting to outweigh the good things we have done.

[_Omaticaya_]

It's simple, the nature of man is evil, without God, so there are two kinds of people, people who believe and people who don't. People like me and most of you, altough some of you may not be believers, still care about Nature preservation and have a pure view of life, at least purer than most of humans, but most of humans, forgot human virtue, and are led by greed of money and power, like Tsyal Makto said,who i respect very much as a friend and i think is one of the best guys on this forum :) so i think, that if we stayed and lived how we should have, like brazilian tribes in the rainforest still live right now for example, our minds would be so much clearer and peaceful that we couldn't imagine, compared to our daily life, full of sh*t about earning enough paper to survive, only because we are obliged to... and we would protect our planet by just living in nature, and eat what God provides through the forest and the waters.But i must also say, that i'm human, and i have my own brain and i am confused about things in life most of the time, because modernity has brought good things like medicine, vaccines, houses, but i can't, just can't figure out if this is right, or if it was better to leave everything as it was, because God created us perfectly, and he made everything else, so why would We have to make other things? if i think of all the medicines i've taken in my life i wonder? who knows wtf they left in me? And what about aaaaaall the stuff they put in food? i don't have a clue of what the stuff is, but i always hear about preservatives bla bla bla, i mean we don't even know what we eat! You eat a salad today, you're eating more poison than fiber, wtf is wrong? and why do they use bug killers and stuff? so THEY DONT LOSE MONEY,MORE FAKE SALAD = MAKE PROFIT, PROFIT,PROFIT, all they care about. yeah, who cares of health right? and you all may think, if you hadn't taken them medicines,i'd be ill, or even dead, but if that's true then we'd all be dead because we didn't take or aspirins right!? gimme a break please... and that is impossible! How did philosophers in Greece live till 80 years old centuries and centuries ago? how did everyone in the Bible live for over 100 years old? They didn't have penicilline and aspirins wtf?... Because it was GOD'S WILL, and guess what, even though humans think they've done such a great job with medicine, then why the F*** do we still only live 70 years, that even less then we did before! It's only our corrupt selfish minds that EFFED this world up, if we wanted we could live in a forest with no problems and as Eywa provided on Pandora, God would provide for those who trust in him. With that said, i think my idea of humans is pretty clear... take care aytsmukan and aytsmuke :)

[Sanjwale]

^on that point i need to disagree a bit with you. i'm not believing in god and i'm not evil at al! so that isn't true. beside that i want to believe in a god. but i dont believe without a sign ;) (no offensive :nsmile: )

[_Omaticaya_]

Look mate, ill add something else to the previous post. Let's say then that i meant that even though many of you are not believers, you are still great people, like i already said, so you may not believe but God is with you, and all you have to do is accept it, and just keep living your life, nothing will be wrong with believing, it can only get better Sanjwale :) don't think i'm forcing you to do anything mate, i would never do, but if you or anybody reads my previous post i think it makes you think about humans, who are nothing without God, just because a guy has a Ferrari, don't mean he better, it mean he got more paper to get a Ferrari, but his soul is empty probably. James cameron is rich, but he earned it! he deserves it, because he created something that moved thousands of people's minds positively. So, you try and think of anything, anything in today's life, and see if you find something that isn't related to money. That is the reason nobody can SEE anymore, the power makes them blind. The Na'vi look so different because they CAN SEE, they are pure, and live with only the necessary, which is enough to make them happy, Friends, love, virtues, nature and God. I mean think of clothes, isn't clothes the first thing you see in a person today? and you judge them straight away not even knowing their name, and you can list forever, cars, houses, trips, tv's all things that make you judge a person by what he owns or did, not by what he is... I don't know if anybody gets what i'm saying here, it's like humans today actually created a new method of judgement, of relativism, of diversity and so a new way of life... All because of money.. your job is for money, your food is for someones money, the monitors are for someone's money. It's all wrong, but i admit, altough i may be writing this, i'm in it too, i can get out of it now, not eaily at least... And only AVATAR, the Na'vi,Neytiri,the Omaticaya's, Pandora managed to let it all out, to start seeing again in todays Smog, phisical and mental... NEYLOVE IS THE WAY

[Imperius Dictatio]

i think humans as a whole, we did some good things and...we did some bad things, but the bad things are starting outweigh the good things.....for example: nuclear weapons, we armed ourselves to destroy the world 5 times over.....why do we have such weapons when we don't intend to use them?...or do we?

I feel bad for the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki back in 1945.....
http://www.avatar-forums.com/images/imported/2011/02/1.jpg

Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a good example for how the bad things are starting to outweigh the good things we have done.

Really? I see the Nuclear Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasakia as both legit military targets and the best way possible of preventing the extremely high amount of casulties amognst both Japanese and American Soldiers and what would have been the insane number of civilian deaths.

Besides you seem to forget that the crimes of the Japanese before and during WWII were in fact horrendous and in many cases in-human.

[Fko Lrrtok]

Really? I see the Nuclear Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasakia as both legit military targets and the best way possible of preventing the extremely high amount of casulties amognst both Japanese and American Soldiers and what would have been the insane number of civilian deaths.

Besides you seem to forget that the crimes of the Japanese before and during WWII were in fact horrendous and in many cases in-human.

Also decisions made during wartime are made on a completely different set of principles, and dependent on the time period they were made. I think it is an abhorrent action, but as Imperius points out correctly, the fighting that went before was just as abhorrent, and had it continued much longer, the loss of life on both sides would have accelerated at a greater rate than before.
Thankfully at present, the nations that participated in the fighting in the Pacific during WWII, have a much closer working relationship with one another.

[NAvi_warrior64]

Really? I see the Nuclear Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasakia as both legit military targets and the best way possible of preventing the extremely high amount of casulties amognst both Japanese and American Soldiers and what would have been the insane number of civilian deaths.

Besides you seem to forget that the crimes of the Japanese before and during WWII were in fact horrendous and in many cases in-human.

Okay.... whatever helps at sleep at night, the fact is the U.S killed hundredths of thousands Innocent women and children that had nothing to do with the war, and for you to think it was right is wrong, because during that moment where the United States killed innocent people, what made them different from japan or the Nazi Germany?

during war, no one is the good guy, no one bad guy. just people who make the wars, only thinking of the potential rewards and not thinking of the people who have to suffer for it.

[Theorist]

It's simple, the nature of man is evil, without God, so there are two kinds of people, people who believe and people who don't. People like me and most of you, altough some of you may not be believers, still care about Nature preservation and have a pure view of life, at least purer than most of humans, but most of humans, forgot human virtue, and are led by greed of money and power, like Tsyal Makto said,who i respect very much as a friend and i think is one of the best guys on this forum :) so i think, that if we stayed and lived how we should have, like brazilian tribes in the rainforest still live right now for example, our minds would be so much clearer and peaceful that we couldn't imagine, compared to our daily life, full of sh*t about earning enough paper to survive, only because we are obliged to... and we would protect our planet by just living in nature, and eat what God provides through the forest and the waters.But i must also say, that i'm human, and i have my own brain and i am confused about things in life most of the time, because modernity has brought good things like medicine, vaccines, houses, but i can't, just can't figure out if this is right, or if it was better to leave everything as it was, because God created us perfectly, and he made everything else, so why would We have to make other things? if i think of all the medicines i've taken in my life i wonder? who knows wtf they left in me? And what about aaaaaall the stuff they put in food? i don't have a clue of what the stuff is, but i always hear about preservatives bla bla bla, i mean we don't even know what we eat! You eat a salad today, you're eating more poison than fiber, wtf is wrong? and why do they use bug killers and stuff? so THEY DONT LOSE MONEY,MORE FAKE SALAD = MAKE PROFIT, PROFIT,PROFIT, all they care about. yeah, who cares of health right? and you all may think, if you hadn't taken them medicines,i'd be ill, or even dead, but if that's true then we'd all be dead because we didn't take or aspirins right!? gimme a break please... and that is impossible! How did philosophers in Greece live till 80 years old centuries and centuries ago? how did everyone in the Bible live for over 100 years old? They didn't have penicilline and aspirins wtf?... Because it was GOD'S WILL, and guess what, even though humans think they've done such a great job with medicine, then why the F*** do we still only live 70 years, that even less then we did before! It's only our corrupt selfish minds that EFFED this world up, if we wanted we could live in a forest with no problems and as Eywa provided on Pandora, God would provide for those who trust in him. With that said, i think my idea of humans is pretty clear... take care aytsmukan and aytsmuke :)

Sorry to go off topic, but I've got something that maybe you have or haven't thought about before. But On the note of us just "accepting" or taking things such as medicine etc. Think about some other things, like: The Earth revolving around the sun. Pretty common knowledge, most people you ask will say the Earth revolves around the Sun. But I doubt any of them have seen the Earth revolve around the Sun, yet it is widely accepted as true. Or, what about Alien. Most people would say there are not intelligent aliens on Earth at the moment. But, because (conspiracy theory incoming) the Government can hide things from people and has done so before, there is possibility for them to do it again. Maybe the Government has made contact with aliens, which are now on earth, but they are hiding the from us, and everything is a big set up so we don't find out. Like all the things where "Top Secret" govt info was spilled, actually happened on purpose, because it would make us think the govt is bad at hiding things, when really they have hidden tons of things from us? (IDK, it's a stretch, but it's kinda freaky.)

Or how about something like History. History as is is extremely biased. German, American, and Japanese WWII history books vary dramatically. Also, how do we know some things in history aren't faked? (Not at all hinting that the holocaust didn't happen, as I have personally seen evidence enough for it)

Or, something like endangered species. What if that is being faked? What if American Bald eagles really aren't endangered at all, but the govt just wants to protect them, so they say they are? So they switch something that is actually endangered and say it is doing fine. I couldn't tell you, I haven't been able to count all the Bald Eagles in America.

Again, just something to think about, how we accept things to be true, yet no nothing at all of them.

Like the famous equation F = MA. I really couldn't tell you what a kilogram is without a scale, or a meter without a meterstick, or a second without a watch, or a newton without a scale?

[_Omaticaya_]

Sorry to go off topic, but I've got something that maybe you have or haven't thought about before. But On the note of us just "accepting" or taking things such as medicine etc. Think about some other things, like: The Earth revolving around the sun. Pretty common knowledge, most people you ask will say the Earth revolves around the Sun. But I doubt any of them have seen the Earth revolve around the Sun, yet it is widely accepted as true. Or, what about Alien. Most people would say there are not intelligent aliens on Earth at the moment. But, because (conspiracy theory incoming) the Government can hide things from people and has done so before, there is possibility for them to do it again. Maybe the Government has made contact with aliens, which are now on earth, but they are hiding the from us, and everything is a big set up so we don't find out. Like all the things where "Top Secret" govt info was spilled, actually happened on purpose, because it would make us think the govt is bad at hiding things, when really they have hidden tons of things from us? (IDK, it's a stretch, but it's kinda freaky.)

Or how about something like History. History as is is extremely biased. German, American, and Japanese WWII history books vary dramatically. Also, how do we know some things in history aren't faked? (Not at all hinting that the holocaust didn't happen, as I have personally seen evidence enough for it)

Or, something like endangered species. What if that is being faked? What if American Bald eagles really aren't endangered at all, but the govt just wants to protect them, so they say they are? So they switch something that is actually endangered and say it is doing fine. I couldn't tell you, I haven't been able to count all the Bald Eagles in America.

Again, just something to think about, how we accept things to be true, yet no nothing at all of them.

Like the famous equation F = MA. I really couldn't tell you what a kilogram is without a scale, or a meter without a meterstick, or a second without a watch, or a newton without a scale?

Good point mate, and that is a real coincidence, because the other day i just found another one of those programs on tv talking about mysteries and aliens etc etc we've all seen that kind of stuff before,loads of times, and it's attractive, but in a bad way, because it just leads to bad tgoughts, to doubt... and i thought Exactly the things you just wrote, and i admit, it is a topic that really frightens me, maybe the only thing that scares me the most, which is fear of the unknown , or 'fear of being fooled about everything you consider as truth' i'd say it that way xD and so what i do, is try to not think of these things, i just live my life through my own eyes, nature, friends, faith in God, Avatar, the Bible, which is the Only truth, because as i already said, even television and information is just another tool of this CORRUPT society, so i will not belive it, i will follow the Na'vi lifestyle, and i will till death, in a good way i mean, you understand theorist? Just believe what you feel, take care mate ;)

[Theorist]

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean I enjoy pursuing knowledge, through learning in school and stuff. But I've also accepted, the only things I can take as true are my own personal thoughts, feelings, emotions, and my faith.

[Druless]

Companies like FOX news that not only underinform their audiences, but purposely misinform them. Not to mention the corruption and political power of organized religion.

Well, let me just inform you, and everybody else, that it isn't just Fox news, but every news entity. Fox is conservative, CNN & MSNBC are extreme liberals. It's frustrating that these news channels promote people who aren't faithful to the American people, but to their political parties. That's something that needs to change. I know, off topic.