Analyzing Avatar

[Stalin]

Wrap your heads around this.

New Statesman - Return of the natives (http://www.newstatesman.com/film/2010/03/avatar-reality-love-couple-sex)

[Vauktu]

The comments under that article say everything. There's nothing about it to wrap my head around.

[Stalin]

So you didn't read the article and form your own opinion. Okay. Thanks for that.

[Vauktu]

I skimmed through it. No point in reading something that clearly wouldn't convince me into thinking differently, especially considering how ridiculous the claim is.

As I see things, you're one of those people who has trouble understanding Avatar, or is taking things in a completely obscene way.

I am in agreement with this comment:

Zizek seems rather confused about Avatar, so much so that he rapidly abandons his critique of the film itself, dragging in a host of other Hollywood productions that don't really have much relevance to Avatar at all. This seems rather lacking in discipline to me, and he wanders, in his thinking, all over the place, so the points he's making about Avatar become stragely mirage-like and defuse. He also chooses, to make his attack stick, to grossly over-simplify the storyline and "message" contained in the film.

[Stalin]

Convince you of what, exactly? And did you even read any of the other comments, or the first one that told you the article was stupid so you could justify not reading it. It's like you enjoy being ignorant or something.

"1) although the film is, of course, not racist by hollywood standards, what Zizek is saying is that it bears all the hallmarks of a fully racist, imperialist society that wants to sympathise with the poor and starving in the world but does not really want to help them"

"your reaction at Avatar being accused of racism proves Zizek’s point! Avatar is the natural product of a racist society. You associate with Avatar as you associate yourself with Western society. When Zizek accuses Avatar of racism you subconsciously know he is also accusing you of racism, get flustered and take offense!"

I mean, if anything...this is an article that would inform one how they could actually help people here on earth, facing similar struggles to that of Na'vi, in a more effective and appropriate manner. If you actually did want to help. But heaven forbid we should debate the issue and have an actual discussion, that might require some intellect, instead you'll just cop out.

[Replica]

I've read the article and i've formed this opinion, WHO CARES!? Seriously it's just a movie. Get over it.

[caveman]

I skimmed through it. Got lost in the other movies though - was reading in a rush. Didn't understand what he was saying (again, i read it in like 1 minute).

As for racism, no.

ahhh, I love when people slam Avatar as "left sided". "Avatar is extremely biased" etc. Isn't that the point of movies? Besides escapism (which Avatar was great at), aren't movies supposed to make a statement? Literature isn't just written for fun. Huxley didn't write Brave New World because he was bored, he wrote it to make a statement. Just like Cameron wanted to promote simple, eco-friendly living. Imagine how dull and unsucessful movies would be if they weren't "left sided" or "right sided", if they didn't make a statement.

[Stalin]

Movies are ideology. The article isn't so much a critique of Avatar as it is Western Civilisation and liberal democratic ideology. We enjoy the fantasy of the plight of the Na'vi, and we pretend to believe we side with the down trodden, but when it comes to reality, the "Na'vi" here on earth are branded as terrorists or red devils, and we ignore their struggle. We could be like Vaukutu : Hear about the struggle of the Naxalite, find one person calling them terrorists, and then we can forget that their being exploited by the upper classes. There aren't any sexy princesses in their story, they don't live in harmony with the land, true love won't prevail, they're just a bunch of starving farmers who lack the dazzling qualities of the Na'vi and they bore us. The world is a hotbed of apathy and movies like Avatar are big reason why.

[caveman]

hmmm, i will have to think more of this tomorrow. Bedtime for Caveman. I'll be more open to ideas in the AM.

[Aihwa]

Racism will only exist as long as people allow it too.

By complaining that something is racist, when it was not meant to be, your simply keeping it alive. My 2 cents.

[Lovecraft]

It's a movie nothing to cry about and try to blow your head off about.

[Stalin]

Yes. Let's all remain silent about racism and it will go away....Racism is a topic which should be explored, it should be talked about and debated. The ideas in Avatar might be racist from a stand point you may not have thought, just because it's not people in white hoods running around doesn't mean it doesn't take a patronizing view of indigenous people's that may be harmful to real life social causes.

[Vauktu]

Movies are ideology. The article isn't so much a critique of Avatar as it is Western Civilisation and liberal democratic ideology. We enjoy the fantasy of the plight of the Na'vi, and we pretend to believe we side with the down trodden, but when it comes to reality, the "Na'vi" here on earth are branded as terrorists or red devils, and we ignore their struggle. We could be like Vaukutu : Hear about the struggle of the Naxalite, find one person calling them terrorists, and then we can forget that their being exploited by the upper classes. There aren't any sexy princesses in their story, they don't live in harmony with the land, true love won't prevail, they're just a bunch of starving farmers who lack the dazzling qualities of the Na'vi and they bore us. The world is a hotbed of apathy and movies like Avatar are big reason why.
You're not a fan of Avatar because you believe people siding with the Na'vi in Avatar makes them side with the indigenous people of Earth?

I'm not as biased about things as it seems. I'm not the type of person who is quick to judge.

Also, if you could, please re-read through what you write, there is a lot of cleaning up that can be done.

[Stalin]

I hope your "Communist" label is ironic. If you were a true communist you would have recognised the article was written by Slavoj Zizek, the most prominent Marxist philosopher of the time. The only other contemporary philosopher/cultural critic who comes near his popularity and influence would be Derrida.

I don't think I ever said I wasn't a fan of the movie. Just because I found an article that may not be agreeable to many of the people who loved the movie it doesn't mean I'm trying to attack it. As for the rest of your statement, Vak, I have no idea what you're talking about.

We like the glamour of Avatar, but we don't feel half as passionate about people who are actively facing the same struggle, we don't want to be part of it...maybe because it's not as glamorous or maybe because it's branded as terrorism and their exploitation is justified in the media. I don't know. Either way it's a real problem and the article addresses this.

[Vauktu]

We like the glamour of Avatar, but we don't feel half as passionate about people who are actively facing the same struggle, we don't want to be part of it...
What struggle, exactly? This is what I mean when I say, "there is a lot of cleaning up that can be done."

[Stalin]

People being forced off their land and into poverty, so large corporations can exploit natural resources found on said land.

[Vauktu]

Let me get this straight. Avatar is racist simply because the RDA forced the indigenous people off of their land?

That's called a "plot". Look it up.

Like I said earlier, you are taking things in a completely obscene way.

There's nothing racist about Avatar.

[Aihwa]

Yes. Let's all remain silent about racism and it will go away....Racism is a topic which should be explored, it should be talked about and debated. The ideas in Avatar might be racist from a stand point you may not have thought, just because it's not people in white hoods running around doesn't mean it doesn't take a patronizing view of indigenous people's that may be harmful to real life social causes.


Or...

We could make a big fuss about it, and point fingers at everything, worried that its racist. It will only end when people stop caring about color or geographical origin. Calling Avatar racist isn't helping the world, only getting people all flustered.

[Stalin]

Okay. This is getting tedious.

Maybe the themes and ideas of Avatar, which are of a liberal democratic nature, seem harmless, maybe they even inspire you to want to do some good. But maybe these ideas/themes and how they are presented to us, ie in the form of the movie Avatar, aren't as harmless as they seem. Maybe they do more harm than good. Maybe they blind us to the real economic/social problems of dispossessed people actually being exploited here on Earth. Maybe we don't even recognise these struggles because of movies like Avatar.

And racism exists. Lots of people are guilty of it, knowingly and unknowingly, the only way to rid racism is to discuss it and to understand what exactly it is.

Maybe its views on the environment are misguided. Maybe they're idealistic and not at all practical. Maybe viewing nature as some harmonious, organic totality is the wrong way to help preserve our environment. These are questions that need to be discussed, if we just accept them they may lead us down the wrong path. Maybe they'll do some good, but have you actually thought about it? That's the beauty of Zizek, he is able to elucidate the menacing qualities behind seemingly harmless ideas and this is to everyone's benefit.

[Vauktu]

Who are "dispossessed people"?

If anything, Avatar makes the economic and social issues more apparent. That's the point of the film.

[Stalin]

People who have been forced off their land are usually considered to be dispossessed.

And yes, the movie does tackle the problem of social/economic exploitation. I'm not denying this. But does it raise these issues in an appropriate and responsible manner? Is this movie helpful or harmful to the plight of people who are actually experiencing a similar situation to that of the Na'vi?

How do we view actual struggles here on Earth after watching a movie like Avatar? Usually these people are branded as terrorists and their plight is condemned or forgotten, so why are the Na'vi heroes?

[Vauktu]

Is this movie helpful or harmful to the plight of people who are actually experiencing a similar situation to that of the Na'vi?
Helpful? Yes. Harmful? No. I do not see how it could be harmful in any way.

[Stalin]

Why not? What are your reasons for not seeing it as harmful?

I guess, a Marxist might say that they are hiding what is actually a class struggle behind environmental concerns. Maybe an environmentalist might say that "living more in harmony with nature" is vague and too simplistic solution to the massive environmental problems facing the Earth.

[Vauktu]

As I said before, I do not see how it could be harmful.

Not all people are straight-forward thinkers. An example of this would be the following: Human and Environmental Rights Forum (http://www.avatar-forums.com/human-environmental-rights-forum/)

Avatar made the environmental issues more apparent. That's all it did. Now it's up to others to fix those issues in whatever way possible.

[Stalin]

"The film teaches us that the only choice the aborigines have is to be saved by the human beings or to be destroyed by them. In other words, they can choose either to be the victim of imperialist reality, or to play their allotted role in the white man's fantasy."

"The film enables us to practise a typical ideological division: sympathising with the idealised aborigines while rejecting their actual struggle. The same people who enjoy the film and admire its aboriginal rebels would in all probability turn away in horror from the Naxalites, dismissing them as murderous terrorists"

Do you see how this could be a problem?

[Vauktu]

Again, not all humans are straight-forward thinkers. They will try different things until they get it to work.

[Scott]

The guy that wrote this has no understanding of the word HOPE! He is as cause and effect close minded as the bad guy in the Matrix 2.

To him there is no hope for happiness in a perfect world because from perfection one can only go downhill...

[Zapgun]

You are not addressing Stalins points.

If we dont talk about it it will go away.

That arguement is half true, if we throw a hissy fit over accusations of racism, point fingers, and throw things every time the subject is brought up, no it wont go away.

If we approach it as responsible mature adults and discuss it, what defines racism, how people can be racist both wittingly and unwittingly, and what we can do to guide society away from such behavior, then racism will go away.

Honestly, ill just get it out right now, I am biased in favor of Stalin, his views coincide with mine, or at least the views in the article he linked. Avatar is an illustration of both the white mans fantasy, and the white mans guilt.

As for disposessed, there are all kinds of ways to be forced out of your home and made to pack up and move.

You live in a small town? Mainstreet stores, mom and pop shops line the road? In comes the big box mart, with everything under one roof for one low low price! None of the locals can compete with the newcomer, and are forced to pack it up and head for greener pastures.

Big Developers buying up properties left and right and making them into expensive houses. Everyone is selling, you can be the holdout or move away with all your friends and neighbors.

There are all kinds of ways to disposes people, you dont have to be a spear carrying grunt talking aboriginal to be dispossessed. Although it is far easier and simpler TO disposes tribals and people with spears then it is with people who understand the society that is doing this to them and know what tools they can use to fight back, or at least resist, or in some cases, triumph.

Na'Vi are the idealised society according to us western folks, and is also part of our guilt fantasy, were just this once the dirty imperialists get their comuppance for their arrogance in trying to force natives off their land. There is a reason it is called the western fantasy, because that is all it ever was a fantasy. In real life, if you allow yourself to be forced from your land, there is very little you can do to change things.

[Svansfall]

From what I have seen, Avatar has made many people think more about the problems of this world, rather than the opposite. It has opened more eyes than many other films have done. Isn't that a good thing?

[avatar_Tingal]

Very true, Zapgun, very true! That's a view many people will don't like at all ( preferably the ones, which see Avatar as a rassist film). It' not about fighting capitalism in general. It's about fighting that criminal form of capitalism what we had to thaught overcome in the seventies and what returned midst of the eighties in a even more down-and-dirty form.

[Zapgun]

Personally I have nothing against big box marts themselves, if the town chooses to have the branch pack up and leave as opposed to the localy run flavor of store, then more power to them. I think a town can choose to force the newcomer to leave as opposed to letting their local stores take the brunt of the financial beatdown that would ensue, its all about getting people to care enough to make the choice.

[Dr. Maltner]

The point seems to be that the movie is racist because it has a human helping the Na'vi and that the struggle portrayed is only perceived as noteworthy because it has romantic undertones. I disagree with both points. First, how exactly is Jake taking the role of an outsider who tries to save what he deems as worthy of saving racist? If we agree with this, then we agree with the implication that the movie wouldn't be racist if the protagonist didn't side with the natives. In other words, if Jake had just assisted in the destruction of the aborigines, then everything would be okay. How would we see the movie then, though? Wouldn't it portray us as even worse, if noone - absolutely noone - tried to stop the corporation? Jake has the means to help the Na'vi and the motives to do so - he becomes disillusioned with his reality and sees Pandora as a way of "starting anew". Saying that the natives are dependent on the "white man" who comes to rescue them is misguided as well. Avatar makes it perfectly clear that RDA has the upper hand, no matter how much military force you have. Jake's romantic relationship or the ability to lead the united clans, or even the ability of giving the natives the information they need to fight is not enough - they get wiped out even when they outnumber the corporation's forces. Ultimately it is Eywa, the planetary consciousness that wins, and it is Neytiri, the native woman who saves the white hero. Which brings this to the second argument - that humans will only care about issues as portrayed in the movie, in the movie. That when we leave the theater, we no longer care. But that's not true. There's a tribe living in the jungles of Brazil, which tries to oppose the government's plans of building a dam that would flood their territories. Most people wouldn't hear about this if not the amount of articles in the media, which I would say shows the change in awareness of such problems. Naturally, Cameron's trip to visit the tribe would also guarantee some level of attention, so you might dismiss this. But Avatar as a movie never claimed to offer any concrete solutions - it simply seems a means of making people aware of the problem.

[Svansfall]

The point seems to be that the movie is racist because it has a human helping the Na'vi and that the struggle portrayed is only perceived as noteworthy because it has romantic undertones. I disagree with both points. First, how exactly is Jake taking the role of an outsider who tries to save what he deems as worthy of saving racist? If we agree with this, then we agree with the implication that the movie wouldn't be racist if the protagonist didn't side with the natives. In other words, if Jake had just assisted in the destruction of the aborigines, then everything would be okay. How would we see the movie then, though? Wouldn't it portray us as even worse, if noone - absolutely noone - tried to stop the corporation? Jake has the means to help the Na'vi and the motives to do so - he becomes disillusioned with his reality and sees Pandora as a way of "starting anew". Saying that the natives are dependent on the "white man" who comes to rescue them is misguided as well. Avatar makes it perfectly clear that RDA has the upper hand, no matter how much military force you have. Jake's romantic relationship or the ability to lead the united clans, or even the ability of giving the natives the information they need to fight is not enough - they get wiped out even when they outnumber the corporation's forces. Ultimately it is Eywa, the planetary consciousness that wins, and it is Neytiri, the native woman who saves the white hero. Which brings this to the second argument - that humans will only care about issues as portrayed in the movie, in the movie. That when we leave the theater, we no longer care. But that's not true. There's a tribe living in the jungles of Brazil, which tries to oppose the government's plans of building a dam that would flood their territories. Most people wouldn't hear about this if not the amount of articles in the media, which I would say shows the change in awareness of such problems. Naturally, Cameron's trip to visit the tribe would also guarantee some level of attention, so you might dismiss this. But Avatar as a movie never claimed to offer any concrete solutions - it simply seems a means of making people aware of the problem.

Well said. :nsmile:

[navi31337]

Theres alot of good ideas and thoughts going around here. But honestly, I think the whole idea that avatar is racist , should be dropped and forgotten, even though this is the debate forum. I really dont think it is. But thats just my humble opinion :bye:

[Zapgun]

Think what is? Is Racism the new wife beating? Every neighbor knows Mr. Cleaver beats his wife when the kids are in bed, but no one talks about it because it just isn't right to bring up such unpleasantness.

[Svansfall]

I see no racism in Avatar. I see it portrays humanity as a species with many greedy individuals, or with individuals who care more about themselves than the nature around them - without realizing that they are a part of that nature, and that they are busy sawing off the branch they're sitting on.

I was very much a misanthropic person during my teenage years, but roughly around the time of 20 years of age, I became a philanthropic person instead - seeing many individuals doing good things for the environment and for other humans and for other species, without caring for personal gain. There are a lot of good individuals that are humans.

However, around the time when I reached the age of 30, a lot of really bad things happened around me, all at once... all being caused by various human individuals who didn't care, or didn't see what they were doing. It turned my life around, and I could not help but slowly become a misanthropic person again. It takes a lot of energy to create something positive, but it is so easy to tear something down... this is what makes the outcome of humanity's actions mainly negative in the long run, and it depresses me greatly. I see more negative than positive examples amongst individual humans these days.

I love Avatar for how it addresses the negative aspects of humanity and really focuses on it. It's a great release for someone as misanthropic as I am. I feel the negative portrayal of humans in Avatar is accurate and realistic. Because it gives positive examples as well as the negative... Grace, Norm, Trudy, Jake, Max... all positive examples of humans. Even Selfridge is portrayed as showing remorse... far too late, unfortunately, but still.

I love Avatar for how it inspires humans to stop and re-think what they're doing - inspiring people to become more positive and do more positive things.

We do have a beautiful world here on Earth, a very very beautiful world. But we must improve as a species, so that we realize that we have to work for what is good for the ecosystem, and for all other species, and not just think about our own gain.

[Zapgun]

You are my polar opposite, I see lots of good in people everywhere, people enjoy being helped out, today I jump started a ladies car, she was incredibly grateful and offered to buy me a soda XD.

If you do good for people, they WILL pass it on. If not then chances are they were jerks to begin with and won't change on your say-so. Do unto others as you would have done unto you is more then a quaint saying, it has very real foundations in a very real aspect of human nature, we like helping others, it gives us the warm fuzzies.

Ive learned over the years that if you focus on the negative aspects of something, it becomes more and more crucial the more you focus on it, this is how molehills get turned into mountains. Eventually, you stop caring anymore and become apathetic, your focus on all that negativity has in turn made you negative. Yes bad things happen, but it is beyond your control and you should take your time to mourn in its proper time and place. Then you let time heal your wounds and move on. Sometimes the only reason I am able to make myself get out of bed in the morning is the knowledge that there are good people in the world, and that good things can happen to good people.

To everything turn turn turn there is a season turn turn turn and a time to every purpose under heaven.